Concerning the Xorks...24 point photons might be inorder!

(depends on how powerful the Xorkians turn out to be!)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

True, but we're focused in Y205 X2.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Ya...Cork the Xorks!

My spell checker always wants to change Xorks to Corks. That always gives me a chuckle.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:46 pm: Edit

20 is enough. 24 is too much. Even if the Xorks could deal with it, no one else could. 24 point photons can be devestating in their first strike capacity.

Consider an XCA hitting a XD7. Give them both 50 point forward shields. XCA hits the XD7 with 96 points of photons, doing 46 internals. Granted, this does not include any mitigating effects from reinforcement, but it also doesn't include the possible damage from phasers. 46 internals is going to completely destroy the hull of the XD7, will likely wipe out some weapons, power, most if not all its batteries, and some command facilities. In other words, after that one exchange, you've got one seriously beat up XD7. In turn, the XD7 can maybe dish out a matching sixty or so points with disruptors (depending on what version of the X2 disruptor you went with). That's only 10 internals on the XCA. And, given the power and speed both ships can expect, getting a second hit against that damaged shield isn't a guarentee.

Cut that damage back by 16 points, and you get a better balance. Still a huge blow, but not so much that any ship that takes it will be so badly damaged as to almost be crippled.

I think simply saying that any overload over 16 points cannot be held is enough of a penalty. I mean, really. You load up your uber shot, and you either take it or discharge it by the end of the turn, no matter what position you're in. And, then you get to start reloading all over! That's a pretty big consideration, and more than enough of a penalty when considering the use of heavy overloads.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Mike,

So's hitting with all 4 16-point OLs in the standard game.

The Fed balances the overwhelming power pf the photon by having lousy to-hits.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Noooooooooooo

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit

True to a point, but only so far. The current Fed with 16 point photons doesn't have a fast load ability, nor does he have the excess power for EW that an X2 Fed will have. His crunch weapon stinks on ice unless he's very lucky. X2 Feds can make much, much better use of heavy photons than a GW Fed can normal ones. That's a core part of the problem.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

We're going back to the old improved-Photon debates. Simply put X2-photons have more crunch any way you look at it, BUT the torpedo has to HIT in order to crunch. I'd prefer to avoid rehashing all those arguments in this thread but I think the salient point is hitting percentage. Photons don't bat 1.000. My maxing post earlier assumes all torpedoes hit.

In the meantime let's stick with 20 points vice 24 and not worry about the Xorks until SVC opens that door.

There is a good point about X2-Disruptors possibly not having enough crunch. Is the solution to give it more crunch, more shots per turn, or more disruptors per X2-ship? Disruptors have more probability of hitting so does that make up for it? Would some DISR races improve one way while others improve another? Consider the Phaser: everyone uses it but the Hydrans came up with the Ph-G, and the Feds bought it.

Finally, what is going to keep the racial flavor for photon-users and disruptor-users? Should we expand this thread to include X2-disruptors so as to maintain that balance? Photons & Disruptors are the core SFB DF heavies.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Haven't played it out yet, but wouldnt single turn photons (of whatever warhead strength you care to list) be less effective than X2 disrupters able to fire 2 times per turn?

By throwing in the accuracy question you are devaluing the photons since they are inherently less accurate than X2 disrupters (greater chance of missing than the disrupters have).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Let analize disruptors real quick.

a raw comparison to each others GW OL's over two turns.

At best the Disruptor does 10 + 10.
The Photon does 16 + 0.

The Disruptor has about equal chance of hitting at the best damage range so out does the photon by 4 points. The to hit is good enough to not matter so much.

Move out a bit and the disruptor drops to 8 + 8, matching the photon but decisively better to hit. From there the disruptor starts to loose damage but maintains it's hit advantage.

The X2 Heavy Disruptor (at least the one I proposed) has a base six damage rating so OL would be 12 + 12 to the Critical OL Photon of 20 + 0. This maintains the 4 point lead. It's to hit get streamlined as the UIM and DERFACS is built in. It also require no more energy than the GW disruptor while the Photon requires the standard 1:2 ratio. WIth the X1 Disruptor capacitor I would say this version of the Heavy Disruptor is on par with the X2 photon with C-OL and base 10 standard.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit

One the subject of 24 point Photons.

I've playtested them and no one used them because they required just too much power.

They won't automatically be game breakers.


Consider if there is no reduction in Disruptors for the Klingon X2 cruiser then it will have 6 Disruptors ( and the power to overload them 4 x 5 BTTY is close the 24 points of power required to fully overload them...heck even 3 x 5 is close once you count that this ship will likelyly have 48 warp engine boxes and an MC of 1.0!) which means that the Klingon is fairly good at generating 30 points of damage at overload range.


So a Fed with Four 24 point photons can throw around a fairly devistating 48 points of heavy weapon damage at R8, it's only the difference between an Alpha of 36 and an alpha of 18!?!
When you consider that you are talking about a two turn weapon Vs a one turn weapon that ain't much!

Once you realise that the XCAs are running around ( themselves ) with 48/40/40/40 shields and 15-25 points of BTTY, you'll realise that how devistated the ship is ( and this is before the ASIF kicks in ); is to a large degree not dependant on how unbeleivably powerful the upper limit of the Photon is, but rather on how badly the PLAYERS want to blow each other ships to bits!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 01:01 am: Edit

On the subject of fighting against ships that are not X2.

The short answer is BPV.


Lets say that an unrefitted X2 Fed FF is an FFX with 2 Ph-1s removed and phasers replaced with Ph-5 and the Photons upgreaded to 24 point photons, has four extra Warp Engine Boxes, all round 30 box shields and comes in at 130 BPV.

And it is fighting an Unrefitted Fed CAR...sure it's a very different technology level but the BPV is close.

Now the FFX is probably going to get either -1 shift to hit on the CAR or a +1 protection bonus depending on what the XFF is looking for. So let's say that the XFF has 7 ECM and the CAR has 6 ECCM.

At what range will these vessels exchange?
R8 because that is the X2 range of choice.

The Fed will hit with 1/3 of 64 points of damage for 21.33 points of photon damage and will probably need to fire 4Ph-1s as Ph-3s to kill the incomming Type VII drones.

The XFF fire 2Ph-5s for 7 points of damage and 2 Photons for 24 points of damage.

So the CAR looses from it's shield #2 31 points of damage ( off 24 shield boxes ) and the XFF loose 21.33 from it's 30 shield boxes.

IS the non 24 Point Photon chucker DEVISTATED!?!


If the ships got closer and fired at R4 to make their photons more effective then the damage would be.
11 points of Ph-5 damage plus 32 Photon damage against 24 shield boxes of the CAR and 32 points of Photon damage against the XFF's 30 shield boxes.


If the Fed really pushed for close range ( say R2 ) by loading up heavier early ( which is something the 24 points can't do ) and put a point of the saved power into tractors to stop one of the type VII drones long enough for the rear phasers to kill it, then that would free up two Ph-1s.
2 Ph-1s @ R2 + 4 x 16 x 2/3 is 52.33 points of damage against the 30 shield boxes of the XFF and the XFF will deliver up 5/6 of 48 + 15 ( or there abouts ) for 55 points of damage against it's 24 box shield.

Which ship is devisted now!?!


But this is the really odd thing.

The Fed CAR can take her 34 points of power and run 4 HK and 6 EW and 16 Photons and still have a speed of 8.

The Fed XFF can take her 24 points of power, run 7 EW, 2.5 HK and 12 Photons to be left with a battle speed of just 7 with 0.1666 points of power left over.

That's right, the Fed CAR either controls the range ( R12 Proxies whilst the XFF tries to hold 24 point overloads ) or the XFF uses a whole lotta BTTY ( it has 9 points instead of 4 ) to perform EW.

Depending on whether the CAR stops some Drones with tractors and thus frees up some phaser fire and what the EW situation is, the XFF could find herself taking more damage than her proportionately larger shields can handle. And even with an ASIF the CAR will still handle internal damage better.


24 point Photons are not game breakers....24 points Photons without the corrisponding BPV is the real problem.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 01:38 am: Edit

not game-breakers...but we can put them back on the shelf

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 01:55 am: Edit

Uh huh.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 02:01 am: Edit

I might be persuaded to keep 24 point Photons for the Xork invasion but I like the idea that the Fed ecconomy survived the GW better than the others and thus could build XCAs with the full four 24 pointers.


I think SVC is the only one that could convince me that 24 pointers are best left `til latter.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 02:09 am: Edit

Y225, MJC.

Not a year before. Since we're focused on Y205, 24-pointers go on the shelf.

The alternative is you debating with yourself and getting very few answers to your posts.

The choice is yours.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 07:06 pm: Edit

I have actually playtested 24 pointers ( as mentioned earlier ).


I'm perfectly happy debating it with myself if you won't join in but I'm so glad to see that you're not afraid of ultimata even if you are afraid of 24 point Photons.


Please, grow up.
Sample what's on offer before you say YUCK!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

MJC,

I have.

Not to taste for 205, and that's what we're discussing at the moment.

It's shelved as far as I am concerned. Other people may choose to engage you in discussion. I won't.

I apologize to everyone else for mentioning the concept in the first place.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Don't sweat it, John. I've playtested 20 pointers, and found them quite adequate. I cannot imagine the need for a photon that does such horrific damage; more than a TRH, more than a Plasma G, and more than a WRG. However, I've made this poing more than once and am tired of arguing about it. I will simply say this in closing. The photon is the benchmark weapon of this game system. Change it, and you have to start changing everything else. A change this drastic could lead us down a road far worse than Supplement 2 did.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Mike,

Thanks and agreed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I think it depends mostly on what the Klingon standard is but also on how good the ASIF is...if there is one.


Six Disruptors, Six X1 Disruptors ( and X2 will be probably worse ) is a whole hell of a lotta damage every turn.

With built-in UIM; six X2 Disruptors are putting up 30 points of damage consitantly every turn once overload range is reached. Which is 60 points of damage if it gets two R8 shots over two turns. Four 24 point Photons are looking at just 48 points of damage at R8.

Even at an R15 shot and an R8 shot over a two turn period the Klingon is looking at 42 damage ( for 36 power over two turns instead of 48 power over two turns ) so this idea that some how 24 point Photons are increadibly devistating is a little over stated.


The 24 Point Photon against X2 ships is less ( not equal to ) devistating than the MY Fed CA and her 16 point photons is to the MY D7.

It's just a return to racial flavour.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

I still think 18 pointers are the way to go.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Cfant,

That's a little awkward. Not a lot, just a little.

Usually photons have gone in jumps of 4 points because it holds for 1/4 current arming energy.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Well, this is true. I would like to see 18 pointers that hold for 2 power.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

I see 20 as a nice 5+5 loading. 18 would be 4+5. It's not a big deal but with some of the restrictions I've placed on 20 pointers it makes them a little more interesting, IMO, and would be too restrictive if only allowed 18.

MJC: It's just that the 24 point discussion is age old and most of use have settled on 20. You do have a little support but it fades fast when the issue is Y205. And we really can't develope anything for beyond that. First things first and Y205 naturally comes first.

John: It's cool, no lementing!