So, what if all three were combined.

A full OL (start with 16) can be critical OL on the impulse of fire. This require 1 energy to one damage.

Up to 18 points would require no "next turn" restriction. Up to 20 would.

I think these could be fixes if the original rule poses to much crunch power.

Hmmm, very interesting.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:34 pm: Edit

The problem I have always had with photons is you can run around the map with held photons consuming very little power and crush someone once you get close. An 8:1 damage ratio on the first battle pass! The disruptor maxes out at 2.5:1. The fast-load photon drops back to 2:1 so doesn't bother me.

Whatever we do for the photon we can't exacerbate the first pass hold cost to damage problem. That's why 24 point photons will never fly in my book. 24 damage for 3 power, just say no.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

In my version of Critical OL they cannot be held and there is no way to fast load them. There is also a maximum energy you can put into them first turn.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Mike makes a radical suggestion with his modification to Cfant's post...

(taking out can prominently labled WORMS!)

What if, instead of altering the critical damage features of the X2 (which seems to be the main sticking point) something "outside of the envelope" were suggested?

some suggestions that would improve the photon without killing the game at the same time.

list of suggestions might start with...

#1. Due to new technology breakthroughs photons cost less to hold. (perhaps a modified staisis field? does not drop holding cost to zero but less than X1 tech would allow.)

#2. Instead of paying more energy points to overload (or heavy overload) a photon, what if a new 'Enhanced Photon' torpedo had a Active Terminal Guidence feature that allows a player to "pay" for better accuracy? (Such a proposal might allow the 'Enhanced Photon' to improve its accuracy on a scale such as 1 point of energy allows a Photon to get a +1 on the die roll...please note it would be per tube so to improve all 4 photons would require 4 points of energy. To get +2 modification to the die roll would require 3 points of power per photon torpedo (or 12 points to give each of the 4 photons on a Fed ship the +2 bonus).

By having the cost in energy turn increase it would prevent excessive abuse.

#3. have the X2 photons function identically to those of X1 but at half the cost in energy terms.

#4. Have the photons functionally identical to X1 but change the range brackets on a uniform basis (such as a foot note on the Photon chart.)

other ideas?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit

BIG can of worms, Jeff. As I recall all those proposals were made during X-fix and all the improved-photon threads. All seem to prove very destabilizing. I think the philosophy for X2-photons is to build a new photon that accounts for X1 rules, enhances X1 capability, but still generally FEELS like a pre-X photon when played. That's no small can of worms either. The other thing is to avoid merely goosing up the photons, which was the Supplement #2 solution.

#1 and #2 debatable, but #3 and #4 probably DOA.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Supplement 2 also rewrote the photon tables--big mistake.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 11:32 am: Edit

John and RBN-

Agreed, I have read the archives and wish I could have come up with better ideas....but I was asking for a qualitative improvement that "wouldnt kill the game"...and gave examples of what such an idea might be.

Oh well, on to other things!

What if, instead of changing the X1 rules for photons, X2 ADDED capabilities but retained the X1 combat tables and damage?

Things like allow a probe to be launced from a Photon tube, so the probe launcher could be repaced by something else on the SSD?

or let Photon torpedos have some of the abilities of drones or plasma torpedos? (Yes I know that Photons ore direct fire weapons...but I am brain storming here...'pushing the envelope' so to speak.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Well, that's what I've done. At first I changed the table a bit to allow an improved bracket for R9-10 Proxes but then realised that against GW Prox Photons would end up regularly getting a 1-6 chance to hit. So, the table stays the same. After that there is only added abilities.

Re. Probe: I have ideas for the probe so I don't want to get rid of that!

Re: Photon as SW: I had thought about a Slow Photon that gets a +1 to hit (nicknamed Slowton). You announce fire and it hits the following impulse for ranges 1-12 and the second subsequent impulse for R13-24. It would burn out beyond that so max Slowton range is 24.

The limited range helps some but this is very powerful against fixed installations. That's the real imbalancer. Many improvements would work OK against moving targets but spell the end for fixed installations. Bases can be easy to forget when developing new rules.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:16 pm: Edit

I follow you, Jeff. I was saving you the time of further posts based on some of those ideas.

What you said with "what if, instead of changing the X1 rules for photons, X2 ADDED capabilities but retained the X1 combat tables and damage" is pretty much where I'm going with all this. I like the idea of heavier overloads but there need to be penalties (one-turn delay, holding costs; feedback damage, etc.) to keep them in balance.

The X1 rules give the photon some tactical flexibility with fast-loading, at the cost of limited range and overload.

Hmm, a 20-pt seeking photon? How about it moves at speed 64 (it moves 2 hexes per impulse) with a range of 8 hexes (maximum OL range). Each impulse it loses 1 point so it's a 16-pt photon its last impulse. It can be shot down like a seeker but moves REALLY fast in a limited range. Arm it as a 20-pt OL or a 16-pt OL. I say 16-pt OL where the trade-off for being shot at is it starts as a 20-pt photon. Plasmas are seekers that can direct fire under limited conditions, so why not a reversal?

OT: regarding the Probe, I was thinking probes are directly related to each Lab box (say 2 probes per lab) and that probes could be launched and operated something like a UAV. I'll post more on that in the appropriate thread.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Interesting idea, Loren. You posted while I was writing my post. Looks like we might have two different modes for a "slowton" torpedo.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Beware with the "slowton". While it can't be directly tied to the Trek movie photon, it does come close.

I'm not saying don't play with the idea, but there is a definite "Danger Will Robinson" here.

That said, another way of looking at slowtons is: you've just blurred the boundary between a DF weapon and a seeking weapon. Specifically, a Hyperdrone. Not a bad thing but it raises some questions.

Can you shoot at an incoing slowton? people will want to apply the DF drone/hyperdrone rules to the slowton.

If so, what can shoot at it?

Does it degrade like a plasma torp?

Can ADD's affect a slowton?

Can you intercept it with seeking weapons? Hyperdrones?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

My version cannot be shot at but there are several defenses. They should be apperant with these additional rules.

The Slowton fire is announced and the hex of the target is given. The die roll to hit is made on the impulse of impact. EW is considered at the time of impact. (note, EW changes after announcement would change the to hit roll.) Cloaking would affect the roll at the time of impact AND at the time of fire, which ever is worse.

If after fire announcement the target moves more than two hexes or moves out of arc or range (from when it was launched) the Slowton is auto miss. Range is calculated as the distance between the hex it was fired from and the targets hex when it hits (or misses).

Slowtons fire is a straight line and are under the same limitations as firing a normal photon (i.e. can't fire around a planets etc.)

A Slowton is fitted and recorded like a proximity except it can be fitted to any warhead.

A Slowton fitted to a Proximity warhead does not add a +1 but adds one point to the damage it will do. (this is done by improving the proximity of the explosion).

Again, it cannot be fired on or even locked onto. It's too small and too fast. There isno play counter for the map. It does not degrade but has limited range. It cannot change direction. It is not a seeking weapon as defined by the rules.

It is better refered to as a Delayed Direct Fire Weapon (D-DF).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 01:33 pm: Edit

How about allowing the energy stored in the photon to be direct fired normally or divert the warp plasma and launch literally as a Plasma Torpedo?

Warp Arming Energy:
4 = Direct Fire Only
5 = PL-F or Direct
6 = PL-Fb or Direct
7 = PL-G or Direct
8 = PL-Gb or Direct

The Feds and the Gorns shared tech, in particular the progenitor Plasma Carronade why not create a multi-function photon box? Its a simple matter of diverting the energy where needed on the impulse of launch/fire.

The Gorns would gain the same capability and scale it up to larger torp sizes. The Tholians never get this capability (shudder).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 01:49 am: Edit

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Quote:

The problem I have always had with photons is you can run around the map with held photons consuming very little power and crush someone once you get close. An 8:1 damage ratio on the first battle pass! The disruptor maxes out at 2.5:1. The fast-load photon drops back to 2:1 so doesn't bother me.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

I don't have a gripe with the hold cost of photons; not for X-ships. I do believe 24 pointers are too much, particularly when used vs. GW ships. While they might play somewhat farily with X2 opponents, against anyone else they will simply dominate the field.

I agree that we should perhaps develop the disruptor for X2 first, then balance the photon against it. Might be easier that way.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:53 am: Edit

I was thinking about not actually making an improved X2 Photon, and assuming X2 Disruptors arn't much more powerful than X1 disruptors ( say a Klingon XCA having 6 Disruptors with built in UIM and no other improvements) then this idea might work or at least have some return of racial flavour.

Additionally I realise the Term Quantum Torpedo can not be used but Positron Torp or Neutreno Torpedo or Muon Torp (Mu-ton!?!) might not be let you follow the idea straight away.

The idea here is to develop a weapon that has racial flavour in forcing the arming to be two turn ( although allowing the player to keep flexability availible to himself by also having the option to arm X1 Photons, the weapon isn't much more deadly than a fully overloaded Photon Torpedo but cost considerably less power ( possible 4+2 ( of which three must be warp ( or more )) arming instead of 6_w+2_w arming which in effect create a weapon that is like a 20 point Photon but without the abiltiy to pull the guts out of a GW ship.


Quantum Torpedo
During the X2 Period no improvement in Photon torpedo design emmerged. However the developers produced a Quantum Torpedo which greatly enhanced the firepower of Federation ships through the use of a more efficenet system of arming.
..... At it's core the Quantum torpedo is different from the Photon Torpedo because it doesn't react Deiterium with anti-dueterium but rather sub atomic particals with anti-subatomic particals. The resultant react releases sub-quanta particals ( the building blocks of energy, matter, time and spacial dimensions ) which are considerably more devistating that the mere energy release of the Photon strike.

Arming
• The Quantum torpedo must be armed over a two turn period.
It is marked with a Q in the first turn or arming to show that a Quantum torpedoe has be loaded in the Photon tube. The Quantum torpedo can not be loaded as a Photon and to load a Photon in that tube would require the tube be fired or ejected.
• The Quantum Torpedo can be held. The Holding cost depends on the ammount of energy placed in the torp for arming:- 1 point upto 3 points of arming energy, 1.5 points if greater than 3 points of arming energy but less than 4.5 and greater than 4.5 points of arming energy will require two points of holding energy. The holding energy may be any kind of energy.
• Upto 4 points of power may be loaded into the Quantum Torpedo in a single turn.
At least one point of power must be placed in the Quantum Torpedo each turn during arming.
The Quantum Torpedo may be armed with no mre than 6 points of power.
The Quantum torpedo may be overloaded from a lower level of overload whilst being held, by simply paying the holding cost of the new level ( all in war power ) plus the additional arming power.
Odd fractions of energy may be spent in arming the Quantum torpedo.
• At least half the arming energy must come from warp energy.
• The Quantum Torpedo shall inflict 3 points of damage per point of power spent in arming the torpedo. To determine the warhead strength multiply the total arming energy by 3 and round any fractions down.
• A Standard Quantum Torpedo may be loaded with a warhead from 6 to 9 points in strength. If loaded with more than 3 points of power ( arming energy ) even if the warhead strength is not yet 10 points, the warhead is consider overloaded and shall have a maximum range of 8 hexes. A full overloaded Quantum Tortpedo has a maximum warhead strength of 18 points.

Proximity setting.
The Quantum Torpedo has it's own proximity setting that has a different output than the Photon Proximity setting.
• The Proximity setting shall allow the Quantum Torpedo to be fired with a -1 modifier on the die roll but shall inflict 2/3 of the warhead strength in damage ( rounded down ).
• The Proximity setting may be fired from R5 to R40 and may fire overloads if they also fire with the maximum R8 range limit.

To Hit
Quantum Torpedoes may fire from the same tubes as Photon Torpedoes but are considerably more likely to hit at range. Use the table below to find if the weapon can hit its target.

Range	0-1	2-4	5-8	9-15	16-30	31-40	41-50
Standard	1-6	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-2	1	1
Proximity	Na	Na	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-2	Na
Warhead Standard	6-9	6-9	6-9	6-9	6-9	6-9	6-9
Warhead Overload	9-18	9-18	9-18	Na	Na	Na	Na

• Quantum Torpedoes generate no Feedback Damage (probably their second biggest advantage over Photons ) and may hit with standard warheads in the R0-1 range bracket.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:07 am: Edit

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Quote:

I do believe 24 pointers are too much, particularly when used vs. GW ships. While they might play somewhat farily with X2 opponents, against anyone else they will simply dominate the field.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 05:08 am: Edit

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Quote:

Quantum Torpedo

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 05:12 am: Edit

Well I actually think NUETRENO TORPEDO sounds better than quantum Torpedo anyway.


Posi-ton ain't too shabby `ither!

By Mark Norman (Mnorman) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 07:14 am: Edit

If you want a new name, then how about keeping it the same style of naw and calling it a 'graviton torpedo'

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

We can't use "Quantum Torpedo." That's a Franchise term.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

"Quantum" is a science term and I doubt Paramount have the rights to that word. Besieds, I believe E2 (The Triangulum Galaxy) has a Human Republic which uses Quantum Torpedoes. ⁴²

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I can just about guarentee SVC wouldn't use the term. If you can't have a D7 with photons, you surely can't get away with using that terminology...particularly on Federation ships.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Quantum is practically meaningless anyway and just sounds interesting.

It's not a good term anyway

By Mark Norman (Mnorman) on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Photon is practically meaningless as well, and just sounds equally interesting. If you want to have a new name for the Federation weapon, I would keep it similar to the exiting one, so it would involve choosing a particle at random ending in 'on'.
possibilities could include:
graviton torpedo
Boson torpedo
fermion torpedo
neutron torpedo