I've been chewing on a problem for a little while now. How do you beat X-ships with non-X ships?

A couple of sample situations -

a) Gorn CMX vs western ships - say 330 BPV all up, minimum three ships, all from one race, no two can be on the same hull, no civilians or auxilliaries. You may have PF's, but must still have three real warships.

b) Fed CX vs plasma, same conditions. Assume the Fed will purchase a couple of decoy drogues.

c) Hydran RNX vs a disruptor race, you have 400 points to spend. The RNX player has the option of replacing it's St-X with St-2M.

The map may be a single fixed map or floating (you will dice for who chooses after your ships are chosen) and EW may or may not be in use (again, dice for who chooses). There will be no terrain.

What tactics do you expect the X-ship to use in each environment and how would you counter them? If you win the die rolls, which set of conditions do you pick?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit

I think demanding that the non-X must have three ships puts them at a disadvantage. If the plan is to see how non-X can beat X-Ships why put the unit limit.

I would fair far better with two cruisers that three destroyers against an X-ship. One primary reason is that the destroyer squadron cannot compete in a tractor auction.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 12:40 am: Edit

The requirement for three ships is to ensure that the non-X doesn't just bring a DNH or multiple "race's best value unit". It should also make the games more interesting to play out if anyone goes on to do so.

The non-X side does have a very substantial BPV edge and is able to tailor their force to handle a specific opponent.

If you want to use two cruisers, bring two cruisers and a police ship. Then just disengage the Pol, you'll still be well ahead in total BPV.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Try an equal ship duel...say a Fed DDX against the BCH of any race ( save the BCJ and any other ships of over 180 BPV ).

That will give you a much better idea of what is possible to have win in an equal BPV of GW & X1 ships.

Alternalty do a starbase assult with an X1 Squadron...the large numbers of attrition units and the POLs and DDs and FFs ( and possibly a CA ) will make sitting at range and blasting far less effective...this work better if Fed X ships arn't attacking the SB.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

DDX vs BCH isn't equal, the BCH is worth a good chunk more - though less so than the forces I asked for above. So ok, Fed DDX vs a BCH of your choice, same questions.

As a related question, if you don't feel that 330 points of mixed ships is enough to handle the Fed or Gorn CX, how much would force would you bid in order to play the non-X side in those matches? (Both players secretly bid, low bidder plays the non-X force, same force composition and environment rules). How much would you bid if you were instead allowed to use any S8 legal non-X force?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 02:15 am: Edit

Okay...a Fed DDX Vs Klingon C7 with all her drones paided for, WS-I with Phaser caps charged ( you know my reasoning ) on a single Fixed map.

Here are the advantages of the C7:-
• 9Ph-1s in a perfect Oblique instead of the 6Ph-1s the DDX can chuck around.
• Her own ADD-12 and Four B-racks instead of 2 X1 G-racks.
• Six BTTY boxes instead of 3 ( although she holds a maximum of 6 instead of 9 ).
• She has 44 power producing boxes instead of 32.
• She has 2 more Admin shuttles, 4 more transporters and 2 more Tractors.
• Sheilds that are a little bit better.
• She doesn't need to find her power from warp to arm her heavy weapons. The DDX could build four standards for 8 warp power ( she has the ability to put 8 warp into Photons and still run at 31 ), 16 warp power into Fastloaded standard or 24 warp power into Fastloaded overloads.


Her disdvantages are:-
• Four Disruptors are weaker than Four X1 Photons.
• She can only Generate 6 points of EW, so she'll need to either loose out on EW or fly an ECM drone...she can handle either if her player is willing to go down those paths.
• Her H.K. & MC are more costly than the Fed DDX...it's a Disadvantage for the DDX that she must pay EW at the same rate as the C7 ( one point of power: one point of ECM/ECCM ) as 8 or even 7 points into EW serverely drops the battle speed of the DDX.


There are basically several methods by which the C7 can win and all of them are hard to employ.
• Suicide tractor. This will allow the C7 to get repeated hits with Drones and possibly SS and will make SPs more effective...it'll also make the Ph-3s more effective and make the massive H&R ability of the C7 more effective...and at the ranges where this can occour it'll also make the EW ability of the less improtant.
• Take away the ability of the DDX to do stuff...by moving quickly you take away the ability of the DDX to properly capitalise on it's Fastload Overload. If you use enough Type IVF-X-Ph-3 drones you may force the DDX to fire her rapid pulsed phaser outside effective range of Ph-3 and thus fire as Aegis Ph-1s, greatly reducing the ability of the DDX to shoot down drones.
• Try for an R5 Perfect Oblique with an ECM drone and H&R as once you have created a whole in the DDX shield it ( like the DD before her ) starts getting very limited abilities.
• Trick the DDX into doing something silly, like power full ECM on a turn when you're not firing or Arming up 12 Point fastloads ( with the option of completeing them as 16 point warheads on the turn that you're building up a two turn drone swarm.

The DDX will be trying to look for:-
1) R9-15 Fastloaded standards - Ph-1 Combos ( look for a stationary impulse to fire the Phaser only after the Photons have done some good ) to wear down the C7s ability to fight.
2) Overloaded R8 Shots to hammer the sheilds.
3) R4 or closer KILLER BLOWS.

The DDX has some real problem. 32 power minus 10.5 for HK and EW leaves 21.5.
Take out a further 16 for Fastloaded standards and the DDX only has 5.5 for movement and 9 points of BTTY.
Force the DDX to use 12 point Fastloads and it won't be going anywhere in a hurry ( not unlike the DD before her ) and force her to recharge her BTTYs and she'll seriously slow down...and slow vessels have trouble with 4 Type IVF drones.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 02:57 am: Edit

Actually all X1 Vs GW battles fall under the same Tech Differential of other Tech Differential battles.


Consider a Fed CA leading a group of YCAs, YCLs and YFFs against a group of enemy Y vessels ( In Y130 ) that are lead by a YDN.

The Low tech DN has the Edge if it can tractor the CA at R1.
The Low Tech DN has the Edge if it can force the Fed CA to look for overloads and dump huge ammounts of power into it.

The Low tech DN is screwed if the Fed CA can make an unfettered R4 battle pass.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 04:33 am: Edit

I did forget to specify Weapon Status, oops. Assume it's diced for who chooses, same WS for both sides (despite X-ships usual plus on the WS chart), only WS-1,2 or 3 can be chosen (as an X-ship in a war zone can't roll less than WS-1).

Single fixed map, sure. ECM or no?

Your C7 advantage list is good. It also has superior arcs.

For the disadvantage list, I would expect the Fed to also use an ECM drone if available, a slight edge to the DDX as X-phasers are better at removing ECM drones than standard phasers and X-ECM drones are tougher. The DDX also has movement precedence, can HET at full speed and has an extra safe HET.

C7 tactics, Suicide tractor I can see. High risk, as failure sacrifices the ship, but has potential if unexpected. There needs to be another viable tactic for it to be unexpected :-)

Forcing up the pace of the battle - doesn't this just play into the X-ship advantages? If both move all turn at 31, the C7 has just 9 power left after housekeeping, while the DDX has 13 and a half.

Range 5 oblique would be nice, but a compentent DDX captain can easily prevent it - he has movement precedence.

DDX tactics - I just don't understand why the DDX might want to dance at R9-15 as this is the disruptor's absolute best range relative to the photon - could you elaborate? With favorable EW, the DDX's phasers do outperform the C7's, but won't do much more than bounce reinforcement.

If the map is open I imagine the DDX will dance at 31-40, arming photons over two turns to maintain speed. On the closed map it probably will at least feint the R8 shot as it can get 10-30 internals from that range while avoiding R4-5 retaliation (using a HET if needed), but R4 against a loaded C7 seems risky to me as the DDX can't afford to trade internals.

On a single fixed map I do feel that the C7 has a good chance (at just ~15% more BPV), as there isn't room for the DDX's ability to fight at high speed to really come into it's own. Without EW and starting at low WS, I'd even call the C7 advantaged. Is it's edge in situations where it's player chooses map size, EW rules and WS enough to give it a 50/50 chance overall?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

Forcing up the pace of the battle - doesn't this just play into the X-ship advantages? If both move all turn at 31, the C7 has just 9 power left after housekeeping, while the DDX has 13 and a half.
Forcing the DDX to run is a little more situation specific than forcing it to recharge it's BTTYs. Basically the C7 Disruptors are pretty much equal to the DDX Photons once the Range is greater than 16 and the Four B-racks cost no power to run...the key ( and it works better on a fixed map ) is to get those 24/6/32 drones to do something meaningful ( even if just force the DDX to forgo Photons in favour of recharging Phasers ).

DDX tactics - I just don't understand why the DDX might want to dance at R9-15 as this is the disruptor's absolute best range relative to the photon - could you elaborate? With favorable EW, the DDX's phasers do outperform the C7's, but won't do much more than bounce reinforcement.
Assuming no one has an ECM drone, 7 ECCM beats 6 ECM with a -1 shift.
Fastloads only work out to R15.
Couple the two together and you get 1-2 for 8 damage every turn against R13-15 and 1-3 for 8 damage out at R9-12...Four times over...for (R15) 10.33 points of damage or (R12) 16.
The poor old Klingon's got Four Disruptor Hitting 1-4 for 3 damage...for 8 damage in total.

You fire the Photons first ( possible narrow volley )...then you do six lots of 1.5 damage ( thanks to the negative shift ). 19.33 or 25 points of damage against a C7 won't kill it but because you are outside overload range, your shields will let you fight another day ( perferably directly on that Shield ). Plus your double caps will make it quite a lot longer before the DDX need to take a powder at those ranges.

If the map is open I imagine the DDX will dance at 31-40, arming photons over two turns to maintain speed.
A DDX will mess up the C7 if can retrograde whilst keeping the range at R31-40...particularly with proxies ( and the occasional BTTY based ECCM ).


as there isn't room for the DDX's ability to fight at high speed to really come into it's own.
Of all the Federation X ships the DDX is the one with the biggest drawback...Four 12 point Photons is too dangerous to the vessel to use and too much of the BPV not to use...it's like a Cloak on a KR, you seriously have to plan ahead!

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 03:23 pm: Edit

Igonoring EW, a fastloaded photon at range 15 averages the same damage as a disruptor for twice the power. If spending 16 on the torps, 6 on phasers and 7 on EW as you advocate, the DDX can move at just one hex per turn (plus batteries), a speed at which it's rather hard to dance and which gives up the most important X advantage, the ability to control the flow of the battle.

I think the DDX is much better off using two turn arming and either longer or shorter range. The fastload is only really relevant when parking on the turn after an OL strike, they are too power hungry for the DDX to use otherwise.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 08:27 pm: Edit

I thought fastloads were limited to range 12.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:03 pm: Edit

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Igonoring EW, a fastloaded photon at range 15 averages the same damage as a disruptor for twice the power. If spending 16 on the torps, 6 on phasers and 7 on EW as you advocate, the DDX can move at just one hex per turn (plus batteries), a speed at which it's rather hard to dance and which gives up the most important X advantage, the ability to control the flow of the battle.

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I think the DDX is much better off using two turn arming and either longer or shorter range. The fastload is only really relevant when parking on the turn after an OL strike, they are too power hungry for the DDX to use otherwise.

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I thought fastloads were limited to range 12.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

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Igonoring EW, a fastloaded photon at range 15 averages the same damage as a disruptor for twice the power.

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By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 02:08 am: Edit

Many players dislike EW, which is why I listed dicing for it rather than assuming it's use. The rule does generally benefit X-ships but they're not exactly helpless without it.

32 power, check. 16 for fastloaded torps, check. 7 for EW, check. So you're not firing half a dozen phasers every turn after all? That'll drop your damage output substantially. Life support, shields and fire control might also be worth considering.

Speed is life as always. Good play for X-ships, as with non-X, is generally not "arm everything and see how fast you can go" but "go as fast as you can while still being able to fight".

The unshifted photon table at range 15 is the same as it is at 40. The disruptor table is six times as good.
The unshifted photon table at range 8 is 50% better than it is at range 12. The disruptor table is the same.
Fastload sabredance away, the C7 captain might die laughing.

On the repeated fastload plot... a DDX spending 20 on torps, 7 on EW, 2.5 on housekeeping leaves it just 2.5 power (plus batteries if still available) for everything else. Even if the C7 has dropped it's engines that's not 8 faster! Have you ever actually flown this matchup or anything remotely like it?

I've run X-ships without any X-rules and found them good to great, with the X-rules I feel that even the very best non-X ships need favorable conditions. I was hoping for more replies to this thread by now, hopefully from people with contrary experience. That the only response requires the use of a flagship to oppose a common X-ship and assumes the X-ship will be used as a club instead of a rapier is not encouraging.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 02:39 am: Edit

Andrew, I find your restrictions to be counter productive.

One large ship vs multiple small ships gives the advantage to the larger ship at any time period where the larger ship is the newest generation.

For example, against the Gorn CMX with 330, I would like to take 2 Fed CBs, costing about 324+ some drones. They will trash the CMX though. For one, they out BPV it by 70 points. For another they come out around end of an era, right beefore the X era...so similar generation.

2 NCLa+ would be able to give a good run and come in close to the 260 mark. They will win more than half the time.

The best ship to beat an X-crusier of any race though is the DNL, especially the Fed.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 03:25 am: Edit

Excellent, a differing opinion.

My force restrictions were intended to avoid the "I use several copies of my races best ship" syndrome and to make the battle more interesting (I would like to see some of these played out). I acknowledge the one vs many problem, which is why the many side got a chunk more points. Something like CB + NCL + Pol is very nearly doable under my allotment and I'd be happy to take it on in the CMX. Depending on game conditions, I'd still bet on the CMX against either that group, against the 2 NCL or against the DNL. Obviously you think differently - what is your strategy in any of those groups against the CMX and what game conditions do you need?

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 03:30 am: Edit

Since my attempt to require interesting forces backfired, I'll throw the field open to any non-X force that is S8 legal and is of the same or lower BPV as the X-ship it is to oppose.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 05:01 am: Edit

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32 power, check. 16 for fastloaded torps, check. 7 for EW, check. So you're not firing half a dozen phasers every turn after all? That'll drop your damage output substantially. Life support, shields and fire control might also be worth considering.

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The unshifted photon table at range 8 is 50% better than it is at range 12. The disruptor table is the same.
Fastload sabredance away, the C7 captain might die laughing.

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On the repeated fastload plot... a DDX spending 20 on torps, 7 on EW, 2.5 on housekeeping leaves it just 2.5 power (plus batteries if still available) for everything else. Even if the C7 has dropped it's engines that's not 8 faster! Have you ever actually flown this matchup or anything remotely like it?

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That the only response requires the use of a flagship to oppose a common X-ship and assumes the X-ship will be used as a club instead of a rapier is not encouraging.

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Since my attempt to require interesting forces backfired, I'll throw the field open to any non-X force that is S8 legal and is of the same or lower BPV as the X-ship it is to oppose.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 07:20 am: Edit

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I think the DDX is much better off using two turn arming and either longer or shorter range. The fastload is only really relevant when parking on the turn after an OL strike, they are too power hungry for the DDX to use otherwise.

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

I need an open map, I like EW, so that too.

You fly a DNL the same way you fly an X-ship. The DNL is bigger and can go toe to toe with the CMX and come out with more internals left over. The DNL can also fire at range, but the range game is good for X-ships, with the EW aadvantage.

Best chance, close with 5 overloads behind a wall of spread drones.

Only big thing is that the DNL must plan its turns several in advance, while the CMX can react in emergencies.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Comparing like for like, the Fed CX has substantially better phasers than the Fed DNL, similiar drones (same total, individually better, slower firing rate), twice the reserve power, longer ranged more accurate and faster arming torps, two safe HET's and movement precedence. That's a lot to make up with a bit of hull volume and one extra torp. Also like the C7, it's a rare unit.

Against the Gorn CMX in the Fed DNL, how do you handle a ballet? Say the CMX throws two M and an S Sabot torps at you in time to deny your OL shot - do you run through it to take a shot through two or even three (8 gen + 3 ECP + 4 EM = 15 ECM) shifts, assuming he doesn't just HET away to deny OL range altogether? If you run while he chases, how do you get the torps back in arc without eating the next wave of plasma?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 08:19 pm: Edit

I wonder how one plays X1 ship Vs GW ship without EW...does the X1 ship fly around just using the -1 shift all the time!?!

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 09:24 pm: Edit

With 0 ECCM vs 0 ECM, the X-ship wouldn't get a shift. This also reduces the importance of their reserve power edge.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 12:18 am: Edit

Yeah but how much of the X ship's BPV is in the fact that it does 8 EW ( with negative shift capitalisation ) and not 6.


With abosultely no deviation from the tables, the XDD will have a pretty lousey time of things when battling the C7 even if the drones were speed 20 or the map floating.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit

If you're free now, would you care to try it online? Fed DDX vs C7 (speed 20 drones), floating map, no EW, WS-2 start? I feel that the DDX is advantaged there, moving to even if the C7 gets fast drones. Swap the C7 for say a Rom NHK (w. Sabot) or Kzin BCH (fast drones) and I'd somewhat prefer the DDX again - the C7 is a powerhouse by non-X standards.