Archive through September 12, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 drones: Archive through September 12, 2003
By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Unless the G-rack has a "burst mode" where it could fire 2 spaces (4 ADDs) in one impulse... :)

It could also be an exception to the rule

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 07:18 am: Edit

Quick question.

Why not simply allow X2 drones (or a subclass of them) to switch targets as the player desires - i.e. they are "wire" guided. They can change speeds at the beginning of the turn only.

It'll make drones *alot* easier to play with (you do not have to write down targets). It will also make them very much more powerful, as ppl will be able to move them where they want, only bringing the drones in closer when they have an achievable objective.

I've often wondered why this kind of targeting is perceived to be so technologically difficult. I can easily see the US being able to retarget tomahawk missiles mid-flight even now, and in space you do not even have to consider terrian which needs to be programmed into tomahawks so they can fly low.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 08:25 am: Edit

That was suggested and several players thought it would be too much. Personally I like it and think its completely reasonable.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 03:05 pm: Edit

The problem isn't in the game world, it's highly reasonable from a tech perspective.

It's game balance.

Suddenly weasels and chaff at the very least are much less effective. Drones have already gotten better as tech increases (proof: X1 drones had to be downgunned) This would make them exponentially better.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Consider how many fewer drones X2 can launch as compared to an equal BPV of GW. They could use a few improvements. I would make this guide-by-wire tech available to rack launched drones only, no SP or fighters.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 03:39 pm: Edit

I would agree to trying it, if there were a progressively better of loosing control of the drone when you changed targets. A lock on roll with penalties based on the number of times you change targets would work.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Simplify, if you are allowing target switching just let the owner control the drone completely.

Suggested rule:
An X2 seeking weapon may be 'remote controled', remote control may only be provided by the launching unit (no transfers, no scater packs, no self guidance), and must be provided from the moment of launch. Remote control requires two seeking weapons control channels or one fighter remote control channel per seeking weapon. Remote control has a maximum range of 15 hexes. Remote controlled units are moved by the owner and need not have a target designated. The owner may designate a target at any time, including at the instant that remote control is dropped for ANY reason, and may change this designation at will.

Remote controlled units may not be switched to normal guidance by any method; however, if a target is designated and the weapon has the ability to self-guide the weapon may be dropped to self-guidance at any time. Remote controlled drones may be turned off or retargeted by a scout, but retargeting is normally futile (unless the drone is in the same hex as the scout) since targeting may be changed by the controling unit and does not control movement.

If a multiwarhead drone, SP shuttle, or other seeking weapon that launches some form of submunition is under remote control then it may be ordered to launch submunitions at any time that it would be legal to do so were the unit under normal guidance. Any submunition targeting instructions legal for launches under normal control may be sent via. remote control at the time that a launch is ordered.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

Quote:

Why not simply allow X2 drones (or a subclass of them) to switch targets as the player desires - i.e. they are "wire" guided. They can change speeds at the beginning of the turn only.

It'll make drones *alot* easier to play with (you do not have to write down targets). It will also make them very much more powerful, as ppl will be able to move them where they want, only bringing the drones in closer when they have an achievable objective.

I've often wondered why this kind of targeting is perceived to be so technologically difficult. I can easily see the US being able to retarget tomahawk missiles mid-flight even now, and in space you do not even have to consider terrian which needs to be programmed into tomahawks so they can fly low.


I think it should be allowed...but should also have some massive penalty...say, an extra drone control channel is required to be kept open so that the drone can receive the orders to change targets ( and it should cost some Extra BPV but that could be considered a fundamental cost of the X2 drones ).


The general consensus is that if you had retargetable drones, you could build a drone tsunami of either a string of drones one hex apart ( if the enemy has T-bombs ) or all packed into the same hex ( if the enemy has ADDs ) that could put the entire drone control rate of the drone chucking ship up against the defender's defenses.
Indent Consider a D7D fighting a Fed NCA, putting 12 Type IVF drones on the board with out the use of an SP ( such that a pair of proxies can be used to pop one or more of the SPs ) is going to make any defense short of weaseling too little.

Personnally, the drone Tsunami is that much of a threat because someone invented the WW.

Now by having a requirement for the second drone control channel for the multi-target drone, one will find that thge drone tsunami is ineffectual.
White{Indent COnsidera Fed CARa+ fighting a Klingon D7bk...with three type IVF drones in an SP and launching two form the racks it can hurl a massive have of 5 x 24/6/32 whilst launching two multi-target drones from the rack and then 2 regular one could only put 4 x 24/6/32 on the board before the drone control channel limit is filled.
The disadvantage is that fewer drones are being used but the advantages are; it's easier to put the drones in a tighter bundle ( speed 6 admins are pretty lousey at launching drones that are tightly packed in with your rack launched drones) which makes the enemy chance of recycling their phasers greatly reduced and you didn't suffer the risk that your SP was poped by a pair of proxi photons ( or your boosted SP was poped by a single Proxi Photon ) and indeed that you can do the attack without and shuttle ( meaning a D7bk can have both her shuttles devoted to WW duty ).


Quote:

Consider how many fewer drones X2 can launch as compared to an equal BPV of GW. They could use a few improvements. I would make this guide-by-wire tech available to rack launched drones only, no SP or fighters.


I'ld even go so far as to say that the WW is giving off so many EM signatures that the drones that have locked on can't get an unscrammbled signal and thus must stay locked on to that wild weasel...but maybe it isn't needed...playtesting be the judge!


Quote:

I would agree to trying it, if there were a progressively better of loosing control of the drone when you changed targets. A lock on roll with penalties based on the number of times you change targets would work.


If wouldn't say that...to much crap shooting...remember what happened to X1 overloaded weapons!?!
I might agree to a die roll for transfereing control after a drone has locked on to a WW...perhaps the increased signal strength of the EM signature of the WW become more likely the closer to the target one is.
Say a die roll of 6 or less will allow your to change targets after locking on to a Wild Weasel but the following penalty shall apply
Range Penalty
37+ Nil
26-36 -1
17-25 -2
10-16 -3
5-9 -4
2-4 -5
1 down -6


This way the WWs arn't much of a problem until the ship gets into it's attack run and WWs can and will make drones "terminal".


Quote:

Remote control requires two seeking weapons control channels or one fighter remote control channel per seeking weapon


Don't bring fighter channels into it...otherwise the Klingons will be able to control 54 drones if they adding the S-Bridge aswell ( check watch you've written and how it reads )...


Quote:

Remote controlled units may not be switched to normal guidance by any method; however, if a target is designated and the weapon has the ability to self-guide the weapon may be dropped to self-guidance at any time.


I wouldn't go that way, I'ld say the drone once switched to standard guiadance ( in the same way that a drone once switched to ATG can noyt be switched back to standard ) can not be switched back to remote control.
If people want to flood their control channels, then they just have to pay the penalty.


Quote:

Remote controlled drones may be turned off or retargeted by a scout, but retargeting is normally futile (unless the drone is in the same hex as the scout) since targeting may be changed by the controling unit and does not control movement.


Actually we might limit the drone changes of target to something small like, no change within 8 impulses of a previous change of target.
I'ld probably also make attracting drones by scout a thing that was a harsher penaly, such that you couldn't change the target of the drone ( the owner of the drone ) of another 16 impulses.
Knocking down lock-ons of remote control drones should knock down the lock-on of the drone in an instant and the drones become inert and thus the drone owner can not retarget the drone...drone knock-downs should stay knocked down, because they don't have anythinbg to do with the target and have instead with the drone selecting "the inert mode".

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 01:03 am: Edit

The tactic I would use would be to target a ship behind the one I wished to strike, maneuvering to be obvious that the other ship is targeted and when I'm close to the other ship, switch to that one. This could allow me to sweep around a ship and strike from behind.

I’m not keen on the switch target idea. It would be less dislikeable if it were restricted availability. Having waves of drone that can switch targets would be insane. A cruiser with a few would be so bad and would actually increase the value of the type of drone as it rarity would increase its guise and thus its effectiveness and surprise.

It could be a module. That way it takes up a warhead space. Could also have a cumulative control channel build up. I.e. as long as the drone is in flight a control channel is used up for each target and the old channel is on hold until the drone is no longer in flight.

So, if you have six control channels and launch six drones, one of which is a target switcher, the TS-Drone couldn't switch targets. If you only launched five drones then the TS-Drone could switch targets once.

Example: Six available control channels. Launch a TS-Drone this leaves 5 channels + one in control of the TS-Drone.

The TS-Drone switches targets.

You now have 4 available channels + one in control of the TS-D and the sixth on TSD Hold.

The TS-Drones switches targets a second time.

Now there are 3 channels open and one controlling and two on TSD Hold.

The TS-Drone is destroyed.

You now have six available control channels.

End of Example.


In a limited availability and as a module (Target Switcher Module = 1/2 space), I suppose I can see it a doable. You can switch targets so long as you have control channels to spend. In this way it would be very hard to have a wave of TS-Drones screwing with balance. But would end up as a crafty surprise when a wave suddenly has one drone turn towards another unit.

Re: Wild Weasels. It should not be possible to switch targets from the weasel to the original unit because the original target is no longer there (to the drone). The weasel is the target so long as it is valid. While the weasel is out any drone that switches to its protectee would accept the weasel as the target. You could even say that WW have an affect on target switchers that renders them unable to switch.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

Quote:

Wild Weasels. It should not be possible to switch targets from the weasel to the original unit because the original target is no longer there (to the drone).


Amen brother.

A Ship that launched weasel and later ( whilst under the Weasel ) a drone is switched to that ship, the drone recognises the WW as that ship...just like drones launched at a ship after that ship dropped a weasel.


Quote:

In a limited availability and as a module (Target Switcher Module = 1/2 space), I suppose I can see it a doable.


Let's not go too overboard.

If a Klingon XCA has 2 X2 B-racks and a control drate of double it's sensor rating and can chuck in it's own S-Bridge control.
The 18 drones it can control...theoretically, is probably well match by having an upper limit of 9 SW drones ( although 6 SW and 6 regular drones would be nasty ).
This is one of the problems of the X2 ships, we seriously won't come close to filling out drone control rates because the drones are too fast ( is the out control range for X2 drones still 35 hexes ( 35 hexes gets used up by speed 32 drones rather quickly...especially if speed 40 drones come to pass )) and THE TREATY will probably limit the number of drone rack they can have.

Now an XD7D might have 6 racks ( on acount of the fact that the DXD DID ) and thus be anble to get 18 drones on the board in 3 turns of build up.
By limiting that such that is probably 6 drones per turn for three turns, or at worst 12 drones in a single tyurn and an other turn of 6 drones, the restriction of using a second control channel is probably just enough. 9 switch drones or even 6 switch drones and 6 regular isn't that much worse than the 12 regular that one could encounter if the enemy throws well timed drones at you.

Although an XD7D is probably not going to be ablke to throw that many drones out until after THE REFIT in which case expect the cruisers to all be running around with 12Ph-5 suites and the rapid pulse abilites therein.

I wonder if an XD6D will ever come to pass...maybe the X2 period D6D analog will be a refitted DX...three engine mounted GX racks, 2 tail mounted GX racks...special sensor mounted where the boom tractors are...man that's what I call a drone bombardment ship...X wonder if there will be in the X2 period ( or late X1 period ) a Type III drone analog iwth a 25 turn endurance and X1 drone capabilities!?!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 04:05 am: Edit

Perhaps just giving the drone an back-up target it can switch to.

once.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 04:20 am: Edit

I don't think a player should have to declare the target of these drones at all - they should be able to move however the player wants them to.

You could say that any weasel within ? 5-10 hexes of these drones has a (good) chance of distracting them pernamanetly, provided said weasel is launched from the closest enemy ship. Just to give these drones an achillies heel, that ship does not have to slow down like you normally do for weasels.

I hadn't thought about chaff, but that's easy. When the drone enters the same hex as the hydran 2X fighter, and the drone player declares it will impact, the Hdyrans can release chaff at the last second which has a good chance of nullifying the drone. This is, after all, when chaff would be deployed in real-world military.

Having said that, one would query how the drone got there without being blown to pieces by the fighter's 2X gatlings.

I thought only Hydrans had fighters from the X1 era?

Extra control channels - certainly you could impose that kind of limitation.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:41 am: Edit

Quote:

Perhaps just giving the drone an back-up target it can switch to.


Well that would work at stopping the drone tsunami...it'ld be you could taget one ship then another and so if DF kills the ship better than you thought then the other ship would have to do some fighting...but I think the idea of the switch drone is to be able to wander around ( like a high speed captor mine ) and then hurl themselves at the target ship.
I don't mind building a drone tsunami so long as it isn't that much more deadly ( and using two control channels it's actually less deadly but easier to orcustrate ) then a drone control channel filling SPs blast.


Quote:

I don't think a player should have to declare the target of these drones at all - they should be able to move however the player wants them to.


I do think the drone should have a tarrget although I ythink it should be able to be balistically target and then have it's target changed before it reaches that point...in this way you can have the drones zigzag behind the X2 ship(s) until it's time for the drones to be coupled with the attack run.

One thing to remember is that these drones are looking at limited fuel so after five turns ( 160 hexes ) the drones drop out...poundal Boosted and pronbably a bunch of other drones will have even less hexes to just waste meandering about behind the ship(s).


Quote:

You could say that any weasel within ? 5-10 hexes of these drones has a (good) chance of distracting them pernamanetly, provided said weasel is launched from the closest enemy ship. Just to give these drones an achillies heel, that ship does not have to slow down like you normally do for weasels.


Can you say; "carrier escorts can weasel for their carrier"!?!

Just have the EM signatures of the WW being so strong that they interfere with the ability of the drone to receive the order to change target based on a die roll based on range.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Quote:

I do think the drone should have a tarrget although I ythink it should be able to be balistically target and then have it's target changed before it reaches that point...



If target switching is the order of the day...certainly.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:26 pm: Edit

First, there is no reason a special bridge should increase drone control. While reasonable technically triple drone control simply isn't needed.

Second, guide-by-wire drones should not be able to hit a target. They must be released at least one impulse prior to impact and that release should be announced.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

In my current version of S-Bridge the drone control use can only control one SW. Seems to be pretty restrictive but the S-Bridge isn't meant to be a scout channel. Only to give some added flexability to lessen the demand for scouts. The typical mission requires some scout abilities but not a full scout. SW control and breaking lock-ons (one unit only per use/turn) is a outgrowth bennefit from its scout channel roots.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Quote:

First, there is no reason a special bridge should increase drone control. While reasonable technically triple drone control simply isn't needed.


1) I kinda like the idea of putting an XFF into a GW fleet to gain a D6Ds drone control capability.
2) The progression is obvious.
Tripple seeking weapon control should be the order of the day for X2 ships.
By using the X1 double drone control AND the S-Bridge we get that capasity without going the whole hog and installing tripple drone control.
Besides which it gives your S-Bridge something else to do if the enemy neither has mines nor is a drone chucker.
Additionally the S-Bridge costs a full point of power to run having tripple drone control would be a natural part of fire control and so there is no counter arguement to not using it.


Quote:

Second, guide-by-wire drones should not be able to hit a target. They must be released at least one impulse prior to impact and that release should be announced.


I don't see why that would be so...MY era drones are guided by the launch ship to their target.
Since the X2 drones will; like X1 drones, have ATG on every single drone, the could be a rule ( say R6 ) that says the drone must be transfered over to ATG...that would make WWs much more effective once the drones pass that range...which is why I would prefere the smooth change of the WW die roll listed above.


Quote:

In my current version of S-Bridge the drone control use can only control one SW.


I wonder if a whole point of power is worth the extra drone control channel...I'ld playtest with the full six and then see where it get's us...I'ld even look into controlling the full six but only out to R15 or controlling three drones before I went and settled for ONE EXTRA drone control channel.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Quote:

I wonder if a whole point of power is worth the extra drone control channel...



Well, you could launch enough drones to fill up your drone control channels and then use S-Bridge to launch a scatter pack. Just time you wave to either be destroyed or strike before the SP scatters. If played well, thats a BIG deal for one point of power.

I'm really not looking to have X2 revolve around the S-Bridge. The S-Bridge should be a logical enhancement with subtle advatages that a craft player can use to tip the scales a little.

I wonder if it would be interesting to add a function to X2 scout channels and S-Bridge. Call it "Retain Lock-on". That is a Scout Channel can enhance the tracking abilities of a number of seeking weapons (S-Bridge helps one SW) to resist an enemies channel "Break Lock-On" attempt. The resistance can be applied the moment a Break Lock-On is attempted.

Either leave it at that or could continue with a power auction like a tractor auction, with each player using reserve power to out control the other.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Quote:

Unless the G-rack has a "burst mode" where it could fire 2 spaces (4 ADDs) in one impulse...

It could also be an exception to the rule



Just saw this, interesting. Perhaps the penalty could be that it shuts down the rack for the remainder of the turn (or 12 impulses (not 8)). ADD's only. Could be useful in the event of Trans-32 drones.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:37 pm: Edit

Quote:

Well, you could launch enough drones to fill up your drone control channels and then use S-Bridge to launch a scatter pack. Just time you wave to either be destroyed or strike before the SP scatters. If played well, thats a BIG deal for one point of power.


That's not entirely fair.
By launching one fewer drone one could control the SP, so the extra point of power would again only be giving the control of one extra drone.
All you're really doing is upping the ease of play for clumsy players.
With the massive drone control rates of drone chucking X2 ships, the extra drones ( if poperly timed ) could be controlled from the one launched and the SP without overloading the control channels.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 12:56 am: Edit

I don't see any X2 ship having more that 12 control channels and some ships simply wont need that many so would have them, even though the advancement is possable, if not needed would be issued (like on a ship with one drone rack, or not drone racks.)

When you have all channels filled your opponant knows you have them filled, but must still consider, because of S-Bridge, that there could be a surprise. Is that shuttle a seeker? It could be, he hasn't used his S-Bridge for anything yet...

In any case the point that is more important was the one about an enhancement rather than a new paradigm based on S-Bridge.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 10:54 pm: Edit

Triple drone control should be an exception for Kzinti big ships, if at all.

A Klingon or Fed with triple drone control is just too much.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 01:06 am: Edit

The GCX and SCX already provide tripple drone control ( and the Klingon FSX ) when the special sensotr is employed...saying that X2 ships can't because of cost cutting won't hold up the day the refits kick in and saying that there is a play balance issue won't hold up because the D6D ( & Kzinti CD ) already can control 18 drones and it didn't break the game.


I suspect that in the X2 period, the limited number of X2 craft that can be added to a GW fleet will mean that those fleets will still have to be careful about drone launch numbers but that in duels and X2 squadron battles, the low number of racks and therefore low launch rate will mean that the difference between double drone control and tripple isclose to irrelivent.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 04:39 am: Edit

"the difference between double drone control and tripple isclose to irrelivent."

It won't be if you allow wire-guided drones that use 2 channels.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 04:39 am: Edit

"the difference between double drone control and tripple isclose to irrelivent."

It won't be if you allow wire-guided drones that use 2 channels.

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