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but isn't the ASIF in reality an internal shield?

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By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 08:22 am: Edit

MJC, so yours is basically a buffer system?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:30 am: Edit

Yeah...by making each Hull take double damage to destroy ( with the last point always destroying something ) and other boxes ( like Bridge and Lab and Shuttle Bay getting doubled if you pay full power ) then you can protect the vessel from H7 PHASER hits and EXCESS DAMAGE hits but you can't stop A3, A4, A10 & A11 hits, so it doesn't alter the mizia but it does make the ship take more damage before it goes boom.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

I've been working on something, a working name for it is "circuit breaker" but it's really more like "last chance." The idea is that there are "shield burst" generators installed in various key locations throughout the ship.

When damage comes into the ship, past the shields, past the ASIF/ACES, and the DAC is consulted (i.e. you know where the damage is going), these devices provide a "last chance" for critical systems by generating a shield burst which shunts the damage out of the ship (kind of a combination tractor beam/deflector shield). The devices are burned out on use but might be repaired (not cheaply) and must be energized before they can be used.

There will be only so many of them in a given ship and each one can cover only certain critical systems. During energy allocation the Captain must decide which specific systems will be protected by this system during the turn (an advanced rule might allow for quarter-turn reallocation of protection). Systems protected would include phasers, drones, control spaces, and maybe reactors (but not engines) and batteries. I haven't worked out much in the way of game mechanics yet.

As I'm typing this, the name that's rolling around in my head is "Critical Protective System" (CPS).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Not sure but in the spirit of entertaining that idea perhaps you could say these are units one can buy with commanders options and place them around the ship before the scenario. They would protect the system they are installed in. You know, place them like guards but they can't be moved. When the system is hit it isn't damaged. Each CPS would come in three types, Hull/Cargo/Shuttle, Weapon/Control/System (tran, trac etc) and Power (APR, battery, warp). Each class of CPS would have different costs.
There would be a limit on could use on a ship perhaps equal to excess damage track.

I think something like this would have to be in leu of an ASIF because between four or five of these CPS's and X2's enhanced repair capabilities you would have a pretty good protection system.

Consider putting one on a torp, two on the 360° phasers, and one on the bridge or a shuttle bay. That would greatly enhance the survivability of the first exchange.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Loren you've pretty much got the idea.

EXDAM might be a good measure, maybe EXDAM+3 or something like that. I like the Commander's Option idea. I'm thinking 1 power per unit, either allocated or battery dumped in at least one impulse prior to use; you'd have to plan ahead. I think it should be as automatic as possible during the damage allocation phase (it is a slow phase).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

If you had to place them prior to the scenario and had to buy them with BPV (hull type costing 1 BPV, weapons types 5 BPV and power 4 BPV) they shouldn't require power. They would be destroyed once hit. Basically, they would double the damage on a limited, preselected number of boxes. Once gone, they're gone.

A ship carrying precious cargo might have several on their cargo boxes, a ship going into battle might have their weapons protected. A ship carrying diplomats might have hull protected. Some ships might have none at all.

X2 would then not be balanced for an ASIF and players that wanted to could buy into additional protection while players who didn't wouldn't have to.

This is probably a diversion from your original idea. Just tossing out suggestions.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:51 pm: Edit

No that's still going basically the way I'm thinking. They could probably be taken out in H&R raids. I still like the idea of powering them (maybe 1/2 point or whatever).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 01:44 pm: Edit

I like the idea too.

Consider being able to place as many as the ship's undamaged damcon rating.

Can you double-up protection on a box?

Suppose while powered, they blocked H&R against the box, but allowed H&R against the protection?

Anyone given any thought to how this will be noted on a SSD?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 04:54 pm: Edit

You can double up protection on a "space" (e.g. Bridge, Shuttle Bay, Phaser Bank) but not an individual box. On the SSD you'd write a "P" next to each space that gets a CPS. When a CPS us used, you just "X" it out like any other SSD box. A CPS would go off (and probably kill the attacking BP) during a successful H&R against it or its space and burn out.

Question: use DAMCON or EXDAM or modifications thereof?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:43 pm: Edit

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The devices are burned out on use but might be repaired (not cheaply) and must be energized before they can be used.

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By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:48 pm: Edit

MJC, check my 4:54pm post regarding that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

I would think that just noting their position on note paper would suffice. DamCon and ExDam are both things that change size for a given hull. Either would work. I like ExDam since nothing is ever based on it, this can be unique.

RBN, I was thinking it would be a protector of individual boxes. Your way would prevent one from protecting clusters of boxes with more than one. For instance, a group of APR could not be protected by more than on CPS. Neither could a bridge.

I think that if you are paying BPV and your number is limited you should be able to put them anywhere you want because where you decide to put them along with how you play your tactics can make all the difference.

They should go off against a succesful H&R but not is the H&R is unsuccesful. A CPS guarded system should also be allowed Guards making a H&R have value on that system vertualy nil. As should be.

BTW: I don't see why this system couldn't be used on any ship from any era once introduced. This could ease balancing between X2 and other eras a bit as the one and only X2 tech applicable to all ships. (well, not the ONE and only, the Drone Booster Pack was to be usable on all drones.)

I have to say, this idea is the simplest of all protection systems so far.

RBN: If you still prefer to power them how about just charging them for battle once with one energy per then one energy for all to maintain each turn. If you don't allocate the holding energy they lose power and must be recharged. Otherwise they are charged until used.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Loren,

RBN, I was thinking it would be a protector of individual boxes. Your way would prevent one from protecting clusters of boxes with more than one. For instance, a group of APR could not be protected by more than on CPS. Neither could a bridge.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 12:13 am: Edit

Same: One box/one CPS, max per scenario.

Well, I not saying pre-X2 but can be used on pre-X2 ship during the X2 era.

Regarding H&R: Well not suicide. The raiders could escape with their lives. But hitting such a protected system would reap little benifit short of destroying the CPS (which counts for something). H&R against guards is hard enough, to succed against that then have the system NOT destroyed because of a CPS would be a let down, especialy since there are so few on a ship to begin with.

What protected? Well, certaily anything with a box inside the ship outline on the SSD. However, I don't think DERFACS, and Cloak could be protected by such a device.

Eeerrrg, I just had a thought. A CPS might be ruled as only being able to protect against damage from outside. H&R damage comes from inside and probably from inside the CPS shield and so the system would still be destroyed. In which case both the system AND the CPS are destroyed. Might should have it this way as a bonus for H&R'ing the right system. Of course, those system might should be guarded.

Yes, that elimiates ambiguity with regards to what can be protected from H&R. I would hate to see players buying a CPS to protect a cloak and vertualy eliminating H&R versus cloak.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 08:09 am: Edit

Personnally I'm against protecting weapons...the dynamic set up by most of the ASIFs is to not interfere with A3, A4, A10 & A11 hits and then a weapon protecting systems would go to offset that...why not just have more shield boxes and have a little of both effects?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

MJC: The difference is a no CPS would be part of the ship. Both sides could buy them so the whole thing about deploying them is a stratagy in its self.

You don't have to worry about balancing against them because any ship in the era could have them. The only question is do you want to spend the BPV for them?

These could function with a very mild ASIF such as mine reduced to absorbing only the first hull and/or cargo hit per volley (instead of the first of every 3 or 4 hits).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 07:40 pm: Edit

From the General Synopsis thread

Mike Raper said:
The ASIF I'm currently working with only protects against a few hull hits a turn, and is comparitively expensive to power. Playtesting so far shows it to be usefull, but not overwhelming. One sufficiently large alpha strike will overwhelm it and wipe out all your hull, anyway, so it isn't too bad.


One of the early problem we had to cover was that the ASIF had to be of enough bennifit over Specific or general shield reiforcement to make it worth while. If you can't cover at least the number of boxes as energy points then it's not worth powering.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 08:27 pm: Edit

My version stops 1 hull damage for 1 power. It is worse than specific shield reinforcement and better than general reinforcement.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Ditto. Mine are based on size class, and have three levels; off, standard, and full. In standard mode, you get X boxes protected per turn for an equal amount of power. In full mode, you get the same thing, but a bit more protection (2 more boxes) for 2 more power, and in full mode you get a +1 bonus on breakdown rolls. So far, it's worked out pretty well.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

The intensity of mine also varies with size class.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 09:40 pm: Edit

On a tangent, a few dozen more posts and "X Files" hits 10,000. Now back to the show.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit

Mine naturally varies with the amount of hull and cargo so there is no keeping track of what rules to use with what ship. It works the same on every ship.

If you spend the energy and don't get smacked hard then you don't get the full benefit, but then you didn't get smacked hard so it's a wash.

It really comes into play when you are taking heavy internals. It assists in repairing, preserving cargo and lives as well. Which was the primary reason I first proposed the system. (not saying I invented the ASIF as that was a growth from the group, just refering to my system.)

Way way back I had mentioned that I really thought the Empires would go much further to preserve their ships and crews having had so many losses for the last 30 years. That this goal would be central to ship design for the X2 era. Every thing in my proposal centers around this and the utility of the ships for Empire rebuilding.

Ships have good power and reserves. Special Bridge allow them to see at better resolution further and the new weapons allow for longer range battle (Ph-5 etc). Some level of better maneuverability per class also lets these ships control the range easier though when facing multiple units this can be exponentially more difficult (hence is balanced against GW).

When the battle goes south (something the stuff in the first paragraph is supposed to avoid) the power reserves and the ASIF kick in to give the ship a slower drop off in effectiveness.

The result is an X2 ship can fight earlier, a little harder, and hold together longer than previous generations. This also saves lives. I don't have to explain the cost of a well trained crewman or officer.


All this creates a ship that is, after production picks up, more valuable in battle than its cost. After the proto-type long term economic costs will match that of a ship with probably 20% less BPV. More bang for the buck.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

I'll repeat my idea because it is short and simple.

One power stops one DAC hit to hull (and whatever hull like boxes we decide to include).

During any turn an X2 ship may apply any amount of power up to its current damage control rating.

I'm leaning toward power being applied in EA only like most DAMCON activities, but that's for playtesting to decide.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 01:58 am: Edit

Tos, that was similar to what was in my first proposal. The problem I had with it was that the ship could take almost no damage unless the volley was large enough. It made X2 almost sniper proof.

Here is a brief rehash of the LK ASIF.

2 Energy absorbs the first of every three hull or cargo. Shuttles in destroyed shuttle boxes are reduce to crippled status and can be repaired once the shuttle box is repaired. Cargo in destroyed cargo boxes can be salvaged at 50%.

+2 (total 4 energy) Absorbs first of two hull or cargo. Benefits of above plus hull and cargo repairs are two for one. Shuttle repairs equal 1/2 cost (but NOT 2 for one, still take a full CDR system slot).

Maneuvering, at full level -1 from speed for determining Turn Mode.

HET Bonus: Unaffected but resulting damage from a break down is reduced (~20%/30%)depending on Strength of ASIF.

NOTES:
In both cases, on a ship with no hull or cargo left the powered ASIF can still absorb the first hit on each type (note also, first hull is not of multiple types i.e. not the first fore + first Aft + first center but first hull of any type.) Note as well, the ship takes damage as the battle goes on. Volleys can be small and still score real damage. This ASIF does not protect any weapons, control, or power. Those have volatile systems that can be destroyed that the ASIF cannot protect. A hull hit might actually be damage on a structural member on the bridge but the bridge remains fully functional so no mark on a bridge box. Alternatively a power surge from disruptor energy blows up a comuter system and half the bridge relays and doesn't damage any structure and the bridge box is marked. This damage can kill just as a falling beam can but the ASIF doesn't protect the systems, it protects the actual hull (members, supports, plating etc) of the ship.

The repair benefits come from damage control being able to place force fields in place to cover breaches and to strengthen structural members (and so less welding and such). Hull and Cargo have very little actual systems to them (life support systems are covered by redundancy and can be rerouted). Shuttle has actual systems that must be repaired. The ASIF helps in the way cargo does and helps clear debris (ASIF system lightens mass of debris for easier clearing).


Now this might seem like a lot for the energy but consider how most of these bennefits would actually play out in the heat of battle.