MJC, I think you are confusing trademarks with copyrights. A character like Superman can be trademarked, and that provides a different, yet perpetual protection.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Jonb: Yes, there is that too. Good point.

I hope we can get back to Drone Proposals.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Er, did I stumble into the wrong thread by mistake?

Apparently.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Leg got Drones

During the X2 period a highly experimental drone design was developed. The drone were called Leg Got which in laten means "I read" or "I put together".

Basically these drones use a basic type VII or VIII propulsion system with attatched modules.
The modules have an automated thread and receiver array that allows the to attatch to each other to form the structure.
Drone construction is done during the turn by simply moving the drone parts ( in order ) to the construction bed and building the drone, then the is slide to the launch tube and launched.

The net result of this is that a drone armed ship can dial-up drones in a manner not unlike Photon torpedoes.


Drone Rack These drones are not stored in a rack, but rather in a single bay attached to the launch tube. The bay can not be reloaded but can hold 25 warhead spaces worth of warhead modules, fuel modules and propulsion modules.

The exact number of modules is recorded on blank sheet of paper as a list consisting of the module type and the number currently in the bay. When a drone is launched the modules are then removed from the list to record that those drone modules are currently "in use".

The launch tube and bay act as an A-rack in all other ways.

Drone modules These drone are built in a certain order, first the Propulsion module, then the fuel modules then the warheads.

Type VII & VIII propulsion modules consume the same volume as a 1 space warhead. Both propulsion modules have a priming tank that provides enough fuel for that motor to run for a single turn. The propuilsion modules contain the ATG circuitry to act alone.

Fuel modules are half space modules with enough fuel to run a Type VII drone for an extra two turns or a Type VIII for an extra turn.

The drones must follow other drone construction rules, such that warheads that must be in the forward space ( e.g. swordfish ) must also be in the forward space.

All modules are interchangable but fuel modules must be connected to either the propulsion module or another fuel module.

These drones may be "overloaded" by adding more modules to the drone than the standard drone. The type VII propulsion module may push 3.5 standard modules in total ( itself plus 2.5 other spaces ) or and a Type VIII propulsion module may push 6 standard warhead spaces worth of total modules ( 5 plus it'self ).
If a drone is overloaded it will count as having external armour for the purposes of drone speed.

Performance These drones are only as strong as the automated thread and receiver groups that connect them ( unless armour modules are added ) so both the Type VII analog and the type VIII anolog can withstand a mere 5 points of damage before being destroyed.

Analogs These drones can be constructed to match drone types that already exist. A Type VII analog would be a type VII propulsion module, two half space fuel tanks and three half space explosive modules for an 18/5/32 drone with a an endurance of 5 turns.
A Type VIII analog would have a type VIII propulsion system plus 4 half space fuel tanks plus 4 half space explosive modules for a 24/5/32 drone with an ndurance of 5 turns.

Construction time These drones are built by a robotic arm that moves over the bay and picks up the requested module and moves it to the contruction bed and lays the modules next to each other ( from bottom to top ) and then the module attatch to each other.
There is only one construction bed and if the order is received to build a different drone then the "top" of the drone must be disassembled from the point where the change occours and each module put back whence it came before the drone may be reconstructed.

The act of moving a 0.5 space module into posiotion and for the thread-reciver mechanism to function requires 2 impulses each.
The time saved by the fact that propulsion modules are one space modules and thus do not need to be screwed together is used up by the fact that the drone must be slid to the launch tube from the construction bed thus one can consider for the time of construcion that the drone is launched from the launch bed.

e.g. a Type VII drone analog is built, ready for launch, it will take 4 impulses to put the propulsion module on the construction bed, 4 impulse to put both half space fuel modules on the construction bed and 6 impulses to put all three explosive modules on the construction bed.
If the captain sent the order for the drone ( after it was built ) to be remade in a swordfish drone, then the top two half space explosive modules would be removed ( taking 4 impulses ) and a Ph-3 swordfish module installed ) taking a further 4 impulses.

If the order were received to change to a drone configuration during it's construction then only the the section that must be undone needs to be undone and that could section which are not yet done and thus the change of plans changes not the time to build the drone.

Partially constructed drones may be left on the construction bed, but since there is only one construction bed per launch tube the launch tube will be unused until the the drone is ordered to launch ( which will probably be after completion ).

Leg Got drones may be launched in a semi constructed state, in which case the drone opperates as a drone with the modules currently attatched.

Thus a drone propulsion module could be launched as a 0/5/32 drone with an endurance of 1 turn, if it was suddenly needed to attack enemy ADD fire.


The drawbacks of these drones are that they take a long time to assemble but the advantages are that they can be orgainised on demand. So of you suddenly need to turn you type VII drone into a high damage weapon , you can just add on a half space of explosive module and fire the drone at speed as though it had half a space of external module attached.
If you're willing, you could disassemble the drone ( down to all her fuel modules being removed ) and then stack on explosive modules to the point that the drone has five 0.5 space explosive modules and only the priming tank to provide fuel for the motor, but this would take 10 impulses to disassemble and 10 impulse to reassembles so you need to be careful about what you want to fire 20 impulse ahead of time.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Maybe you're onto something here. Maybe not a tactical improvement, but a strategic improvement and a simplification of the drone accounting rules.

Just buy 36 speed 32 propulsion modules, and 64 (1/2 space) payload modules of various types.

Put two (1/2 space) explosive payload modules with one propulsion module, and you have a Type I drone. Put four explosives with two propulsions, and you have a Type IV drone.

Put two explosives with one propulsion, and you have a 24 point warhead with a speed 20. You would need a chart that crosses the number of payload modules vs. the number of propulsion modules (similar to external armor).

In the battle, each X2 rack can construct one drone per turn, and launch it on that turn.

No need to track individual drones for the COs, just the mix of payload modules.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 01:08 am: Edit

I've take a while to let the idea of on-the-fly drone assembly roll around my head.

I know that X2-tech is much better than standard tech, but I still look at this and want to say "where's the drawback?"

Possible additional drawbacks is the ability to assemble one size of drone, say only Type VII's.

Alternately, it might be appropriate that it can only assemble extremely simple drones that are the equivalent of type I's and IVs or it can't assemble drones that require any special modules like MW or any of the -fish drones.

I think it's a good idea but it's too good in execution. While the assembly times are slower than a normal drone rack's minimum recycle time, I think it might still be too fast.

I might also point out that VII and VIII drones will probably always assemble for the same times so let's just set flat construction times for each drone. On the order of 16 impulses for Type VII drones and 20 or 24 for a type VIII.

I am completely opposed to "overloading" drones with extra warhead modules. That puts an otherwise good concept into "just say 'no'" territory. Drones improve with technology as it is. They don't need any more help.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 03:27 am: Edit

Well think that something should be made to hold it back..parhaps a no limited and Restricted module clause or perhaps a no replace fuel modules with explosive module clause...but probably not both.

I think the uniform 5 damage is good and the construction rate could be moved to three ( or even four ) impulses per module.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

Actually, perhaps making the drones the equal of the Type IF & IVF drones but having the flexibility of being LEGO drones will be a better starting point. I do like the the external module speed reduction concept for the leg got drones...when was the last time you some someone use external armour and an X drone?

So Type ILG drones would be:-
Propulsion ( 1 space module )/ fuel ( 0.5 space module ) /warhead ( 2 x 0.5 space module(s) )
12/5/32 ( 3 )


Type IVLG drones would be:-
Propulsion ( 1 space module )/ fuel ( 2 x 0.5 space modules )/ warhead ( 4 x 0.5 space modules ).
24/5/32 ( 3 )

In that way we will have more flexible drones that aren't seriously more powerful than X2 base drones...but in a lot of ways X2 drones should be better than X1 drones.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

MJC,

I don't see a problem with installing any non-X module available in Y180. It WOULD be interesting to see an x-drone with extrernal armor.

The one thing I would NOT like to see is anything that rationalizes drones moving faster than 32, or carrying a heavier warhead space load than are listed in the rules.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 07:34 pm: Edit

There doesn't always have to be a draw back. I'm not sure I'm too into this idea because it take away from tactical planning; a major componant of the game. But it's not too out there. The assembaly system should be very large and expensive to repair.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 09:56 pm: Edit

If the assembly system was very large and hard to repair ( CDR 12 ? ) then it probably shouldn't be weaker than Type VII & VIII at the base but rather should be the same.


I for one want to see these drones be more powerful than X1 drones and I also want them to be more destructive than X1 drones...if there is an appropriate penalty...losse of endurance being one such penalty.

If a Launch a Type VIILG drone with both fuel tanks replaced with explosive modules I get a 30/5/32 drone with an Endurance of 1 turn.
If I remove one fuel tank and replace it with an explosive module then I get a 24/5/32 drone with an endurance of 3 turns.

Maybe there should be no type VIII analog as a 60/5/20 drone with 1 turn of endurace might be too much.


Since the drone chucker needs to load up the drone several impulses before hand building a 1 turn drone with added destructivity will require a lot of preplanning in the battle such that the weapon is harder to use.
The Defender can still use LABs ( Bridge as special thingy and Full X-Aegis...maybe ) to ID the drones and X ships still have full aegis and the GWs can depend on the drones kill drones principle to defend themselves and the Lyrans will ESG their way through 5 points of damage ( plus possible armour ) quite well.

All in all the thing that most harms the game is the possibility of SPs launching LEGO drones and so I'ld say that since there was no robot arm in the shuttlebay that no LG drones could be built.


As to preplanning.
You only have 25 spaces of warhead module per launcher so you need to do a lot of preplanning...it's not very much good to suddenly build lots of explosive uberdrones drones and then be left with lots of parts that can only build extended range spearfish drones.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 03:49 am: Edit

With the no reloads thing, I'ld like to say that the ammo doesn't go up when the launcher is hit...althout I might allow it to do so if there was an explosove module drone on the construction bed at the time of the damage.

I might also allo pairs of launchers to be located in the same room as eachother and thus the robot arm could scavenge modules from destroyed store next to it ( but only link pairs).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

The drone parts would be stored where ships normally store whole drones.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 08:44 am: Edit

In the same basic volume perhaps but if the compartment is not set up for the robot arm to mix and match the warheads ( and even thr fuel modules ) the it would get pretty unworkable.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit

How about a Rudolph the Red-nosed Drone today?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Let me guess...a ship following the rednose warhead ( must be in forward warhead slot ) suffers from no random movement in a Nebula. The drone is also immune from damage to it from the nebula.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

I agree with not allowing faster than speed 32. Period. But "overloading" with extra explosives could be given the drawback of reduced speed, just as external armor slows a drone down.

But, if there's an extra warhead, and not an extra propulsion, the drawback could be a slower speed. Playtesting will decide if it's workable or not.

It takes some of the planning away from the CO selection stage, and moves it to the in-the-battle stage.

How about this:

• Ships come with some pre-assembled drones, and some drone spare parts.

• To assemble a drone during a scenario, a drone rack must be taken off line during the turn it's assembled, and up to two spaces of drones may be assembled during the turn the rack is off line.

• Example, Drone rack fires on turns 1,2,3, On turn 4, the captain decides to assemble a drone with 1 propulsion, 1 warhead, and an armor module. On turn 5, it's ready to fire. Since there are 2 modules and 1 propulsion, this will be a speed 20 drone.

• The drone assembly mechanism is destroyed when the drone rack it's attached to is destroyed. To repair the rack without the assembly is normal CDR cost. To repair with the assembly is an additional 4 CDR points.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Edit

I wasn't thinking of letting such a design increase the speed above 32...although I would like to see other forms of X2 drone going there.

I would say the the Lego Drone was a Kzinti weapon only and have them mixed with a regular drone launch capasity.

So a Kzinit cruiser would have 2 C-racks and 2 LG Racks and latter have a refit to 2 C-racks, 2 B-racks and 2 LG Racks.

That wouldn't be much different to 2 C-racks and 2 B-racks being refitrted to 2 C-racks, 2 B-racks and 2 G-racks but would also allow the Kzinti ship to still have the reloadable, fairly fast firing pick beforeyour fight drone that drone chuckers are used to.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit

The Lego could be an assembly box but not a drone rack. The lego assembles, then it's loaded in a rack.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 06:40 pm: Edit

The Lego could be a Kzinti Alternative to the ANY BOX and allowed to feed every drone under the drone reload rules...then we'ld have another touch of racial flavour.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Ah, you guys just gave me a great idea!
I'm gonna buy some legos and build (and paint) my own miniatures. Finally, a creative way to make miniatures at MY level.

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 09:15 pm: Edit

About two years ago I proposed a "Jarhead Drone" that had a boarding party in the warhead. It was done as a joke at the time, but I gave it some more thought.

Have the warhead of the drone replaced with a transporter relay (same kind as found in DefSats). It also has some tool that borrows into or ignores the sheild. You could beam a boarding party into the drone, and next impulse it beams it into the target ship.

You must have LOS to the drone (i.e. drone is sitting on shield 4, any weapons fire from your ship must be able to hit shield 4).

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 01:25 am: Edit

A breaching pod?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 06:52 pm: Edit

How about this.

Spearfish drones in the X2 period become more compact and more effective, thus they hold open the hole in the shield until the end of the TRANSPORTERS step of the impulse in which they strike and they have room to mount a mechanism to drop transporter data colation bouys.
Thus a transporter ( no more than one transporter per drone ) can beam a BP through a shield that is not yet down by the use of the Spearfish drone.

The transporter must have a direct line of site to the target and the shield struck must be the shield between the target and the beaming ships.

The transport may only occour on the impulse of the X2 spearfish drones strike their target.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

From the Timeline thread:

For the drone using races the benefit of the Y188 refit provided both a slight increase in firepower with a simplified logistical system. This was accomplished by adapting every ship, fighter and PF in the fleet to accommodate X-drones. As it turned out this was not as difficult as first feared. Rather than swap out the entire drone rack as was done in Y175 the engineers were able to modify the type-VII and type-IX drone to fit into non-X racks. A software upgrade to the fire control system then allowed the unit to launch and control the more advanced drone.

I’m not sure if the type-VIII drone was:
a) incompatible with non-X
b) compatible to keep things simple
c) compatible but took up two spaces in a non-X rack and only 1.5 spaces in an X-rack

Opinions?