So an F-14M would fly at speed 25 and take 34+ points to kill?

Sorry dude, I gotta disagree with that one. I do not see a fighter generating enough enery to stop 25 points.

2 point can be argued to be a different technology that deflects energy of something. But a system that small that uses that little power would be all over every ship in the galaxy. I would say that a fighter can generate at most 2-3 points of power and some of that is probably a short term generator built into the weapon systems.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Well, I suppose there are changes to everything else. Might as well be completely thourough and change PFs and Fighters too, right?

Seriously. Leave Attrition units alone.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

So, ship designers work over time but fighter designers sleep in?

I just don't see how, in a real world, X-tech would touch everything at least a little.

Players want X-drones on fighters. Free reign and that will be way too much, IMO. Just say no and you get a frustrated fan base. Give them something that hands a little to each side and every ones mostly happy.

By making the only access to X-drones be through a mega-X pack, then you can have them but you'll have to pay for them.

Historically X-tech trumps out attrition units and if those units are to stay in the game historically then there needs to be a reason. The reason must be that something changed that made them worth it again. Otherwise they need to go. No CSX, no PFTX etc.

I hate historical rewrites, I'm pretty sure SVC does too. One of the reason I love SFB (SFU in general) is it internal consistancy and minimization of hand wavium. Everything is explained as accuratly as possible. Hand wavium is and should always be a last resort to save the game. I so don't want to go back to the days of Commanders edition.

To be honest, I hate that X1 had to be revised. I had hoped those days were long gone. At least with the Jindarians the entire module will be redone and someday the old will be forgotten. But X1 now has a big scar on it that wont go away for years. Stick whith what is written and work around that, IMHO.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 09:13 pm: Edit

If X-Mega-Pack gives the ability to mount two VII drones, what does it give to plasma races? What does it give to non-seeking races?

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Between Y160 and Y180, non-hydran fighters go from the AS prototype (speed 8, damage 8, one P3, two slow drones that it can't guide) to the TAAS-M (speed 30, 14 damage, two P3, six fast drones). I think it's fair to say that Y185 attition units already have the improvements they need to keep pace with X-ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Is everyone OK with Hydran-XP ships being allowed to service St-X fighters?

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Not the St-X on an XP. The X1 ships are a special design able to handle the more advanced (and possibly larger) fighter.

The hangar bay size is the reason the Hydrans never got St-3's. Perhaps it also applies to St-X.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:22 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

The problem with just allowing access to X-drones is what to do about the non-drone-using races. The problem is particularly acute for fighters since, except for the Hydrans, their fighters are already weak compared to the drone-using fighters.

---

---

Quote:

Is everyone OK with Hydran-XP ships being allowed to service St-X fighters?

---

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Tos: I'm working that out just as soon as the presure is off for other stuff.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Having just checked Lyran PFs, I find that there is no Lyran ESG armed PF, so perhaps my reasoning is flawed.

Even adding Y era ESGs would be a great aid to the Lyrans PFs.

I still think the Lyrans should get X1 PFs in X1R but would be okay if they were infact INTERCEPTOR-X rather than full PFXs.
INTX would kinda be cool and not violate the NO XPF text that has already been published.
Perhaps PF engines ( and boosters ) on Interceptors is as much of a boost to interceptors as X1 engines are to GW ships.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit

All, the rework of X1 said that attrition units were not made obsolete by X-technology. Using that as a basis, attrition does NOT need an upgrade.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 12:03 am: Edit

You know, if PFX were immune to X1-Aegis then PFXs would be really useful against X ships and XP ships that already had Aegis.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

How would a PFX be immune to aegis? The aegis is based on the size class of the target and is controlled by the fire control of the ship doing the shooting.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 09:08 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

How would a PFX be immune to aegis? The aegis is based on the size class of the target and is controlled by the fire control of the ship doing the shooting.

---

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Nope, X-AEGIS is good but it's not all powerful. No PFX immunity.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Per Tos' request, I am responding here to the mega-x pack discussion in the X1R thread here.

Loren - you describe a standard mega-pack as providing extra charges for the fighters' D-torps, but I don't think that's quite correct. J16.242 describes extra charges for direct-fire heavy weapons on fighters but J16.243 is the section that deals with plasma fighters and describes extra torpedos, not extra charges. Also note that D-torps are handled like drones more generally in that ships have a finite number of them and cannot create more during a scenario, though they might move some out of storage into launch racks or fighter ready-racks.

By contrast, there's no limit to the number of F-torps a ship has either for its own use or for its fighters. As long as the ship has power and the fight is continuing, it can always "create" more of them.

So I think that the D-torps that a plasma fighter receives using megafighter packs are actual torps carried by the mega-pack, not extra charges for torps carried by the fighter itself. I believe that direct-fire heavy weapons mega-packs and seeking weapon mega-packs are different this way. That at least was my thinking when I suggested a mega-X pack for plasma that allowed the bolting of the D-torps the fighter would already receive with the standard mega-pack, but not the bolting of torps carried by the fighter itself.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 10:02 pm: Edit

This is correct. A F-torp fighter gains 2x D-torp when megapacked. It does not gain a second F-torp charge.

Now we might want to change that for a X-megapack...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 10:55 pm: Edit

I really haven't have time to dive into the Mega-X pack yet. I have a partial piece of work. I had a major dead line to finnish alarge project by and it took all my non-RL-work time.

I'll get to it soon. There isn't actually a hurry. The basic concept is there and that's all that is needed for the next short while.

Sorry, but I'm wiped out. Been running a mental marathon the whole last week.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit

Just a consideration, it may not be necessary to give the non-drone using race an X-mega-pack. One could argue mega-packs, WBP, INT and PFs are all X1 derivitives anyways.

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Actually there are five things that all X-mega-pack should allow a shuttles to do.

1) Operate where ever a PF can, A.K.A. in "terrain" like nebulas.

2) Improved fire control to engage the same monsters as PFs do.

3) A one or two point negative tractor built in. This ability is lost when the shuttle is crippled.

4) A two point "shield capacitor" -- This ability is lost when the shuttle is crippled

5) No reduction in dogfight ratings.

As far as #1 and #4 is concerned, an X-mega-pack generates a minimal shield/structural integrity field to protect the shuttle. Within the x-mega-pack is a capacitor that reinforces this minimal field like emergency shield reinforcement from a ship's batteries. The capacitor is trickle charged from the X-megapack and the shuttle's engines. This shield reinforcement capacitor recharges at the turn break or after 8-impulses which ever is longer.

Electronic Warfare Standard Equipment :

o One built-in EWP
o two X-chaff rounds.

Weapons options should be something like the following:

Drone – Two X-drone rails are added. One X-drone may be fired in addition to the fighter’s normal drone fire rate across the FA arc.

Fusion – This option adds two charges for the Stinger-X, one charge for non-X Stingers.

Hellbore – This option adds an additional Hellbore charge, plus two “natural” ECCM for the firing of the Hellbore only. (I.E. a Hellbore shot can have up to eight ECCM)

Photon – This option adds a photon charge per tube, plus adds two “natural” ECCM for the firing of the Photon only. (I.E. a Photon can have up to eight ECCM)

Disruptor – Add the additional charge, but allow two charges to be fired as an overloaded disruptor shot. The firing arc is limited to that of a mauler due to shock effects.

Plasma – Adds two Pl-D/K. Increases Pl-D/K fire rate to two Pl-D/K per turn as long as one Pl-D/K is from the X-mega-pack. The X-mega-pack Plasma-D/K may be fired across the FX arc. One Pl-D/K may be bolted per turn as long as it is bolted from the X-mega-pack. A Pl-D bolt firing arc is the same as a mauler. A Pl-K may be bolted in the FA arc.

Phaser – This option adds a single FA arc phaser-2.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Do X2 attrition units really serve a purpose, given the timeline we've set? At least before the Xorks arrive?

I thought the Trade Wars would be a period of border skirmishes, not the all-out warfare that you see when you start sacrificing pilots.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 01:43 pm: Edit

This is indeed the X2 topic but the current discussion is about an X1R possability unit set in the Y190's.

Trent: A lot of good suggestions there. NOt sure #5 should be part of that since in order to survive Mega-X pack fighters are really going to be assault units. And non-Mega-X pack fighters are likely going to be anti-fighters fighters.

Hmmm...thought process beginning...

Indeed, the roles will separate. A mega-fighter vs WBP fighter will be a pretty unfair fight even if the WBP-Fighter will be cheaper.

Perhaps there could be two separate types of Mega-X pack. Assault and Space Superiority.

The drone example would be: As proposed adding Types 7 drones, a two point shield, double speed, 1 or 2 heavy weapon charge, double speed,ECCM, negative tractor.

Space Superiority: Adds several Type 9 drones, chaff, high maneuverability, ECM, shield, does not reduce DF rating. Adds rear Ph-3.

Nebula ability would be a function of the shield. Still would be dangerous as being crippled would expose you to the nebula damage. It would be important to note however that even though the shield damage points are down it would still protect the fighter from the nebula. I should review nebula rules before solidifying that idea though.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

I think Tos makes an interesting point.

Suppose the drone-chuckers some up with X-megapacks and the non-drone chuckers (and I include the Lyrans even though their carriers field drone-chucking fighters) get PFXs or PFXPs?

It would work a little bit away from the "everybody has everything" quality of the SFU.

Alternately, would anyone consider proposing a Lyran-native fighter?

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

A Lyran-native fighter would have a small ESG field (radius 0, capacitor can hold 3 points power, must be recharged on the carrier).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit

If the Lyran could deply an ESG on an ATU, you'd think you'd see it on their PF.

I think a fighter is too small a platform for an ESG. Maybe a Lyran PFXP or PFX, however.