| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 04:12 pm: Edit |
Edited to fix glaring error... and add more...
There is a chance that the Captain, or someone, may succesfully jettison the engine core before it explodes, saving the ship and crew from immediate destruction.
Final Destruction Roll
Explosion Roll:
When the last excess damage roll is taken on a unit roll one sixed sided die. Add 5 and subtract from the roll the number of currently undestroyed non-flag bridge or security station control boxes to the roll. On a modified roll of 6 or higher the unit explodes normally. Should the unit not explode it becomes an inert powerless vessel with a reduced crew. L.O. and crew status affect the roll for explosion normally.
Catastrophic Destruction interaction:
If catastrophic destruction is declared then count only those control stations remaining in the (potentially) exploding portion of the unit irregardless of seperation success/failure.
Survivors:
Take the modified roll for explosion and divide by 6. Apply this as a percentage of crew units killed after assessing casualties normally for the total damage given. Treat any result of zero or less as 1. Round up after dividing.
The Hulk
Further damage:
Remaining, if any, and any further damage is applied as a new set of rolls on the DAC. All systems may be damaged once only a second time in this manner and are considered blown off the ship and permanently gone until the ship undergoes repairs at a facility/by a repair ship. Completely fill in the systems box for each hit, whether X'ed already or not, damaged at this point. Treat bold underline results as if they were not bold underlined. When the very last box is filled in the keel breaks and the unit is gone.
Operation:
A nondestroyed Unit may be recovered, used as a landing platforms for shuttles and fighters (if capable of recieving such units) etc by either side in the scenario. It may be boarded and fought for and repaired normally using self repair. Control and security stations do not give bp combat bonuses unless at least one point of power is present/restored.
Repair
Should the crew survive they may attempt to repair anything except warp power systems using the normal repair rules. Should the repair capacity be destroyed or used up then the original damage control status may be used to repair one impulse system box.
Disengagement
The hulked unit may not disengage by itself unless it has at least one impulse engine system box. It may be disengaged by distance or towed away.
Further destruction/self-destruction
The hulked unit cannot explode from further fire. The Unit may self destruct if Orion or Romulan. All other races may self destruct their hulked unit if they have at least one t-bomb or mine on board. The non-Orion/non-Romulan unit must roll to prevent self-destruction when attempting to do so as the method may have been rendered inoperable.
Docking and repair
The hulked unit may be docked with and lent power for any purpose.
If a unit with repair capacity docks with the hulk it may make normal repairs. If the hulk is alone and crewed after the scenario the following is used for campaign repairs: 1/4 of all individual systems (minimum 1 each) are repaired. 2/3 of each power system type is repaired, including warp. Count blown off boxes for calculation. Blown off systems may not be repaired except that one box of each of the following may be restored if all have been blown off: control station, impulse, one warp. No further repairs are possible under any circumstance or rule until the unit is overhauled at a Starbase or FRD. A size class 4 or smaller hulk may be overhauled at a BATS or by spending one campaign turn docked with a repair ship.
The hulked unit is worth a % of the original economic bpv based on number of system boxes totally blownoff/original number of system boxes for scrap or may be built on to reduce the cost of a "new" unit.
Victory points
A unit that is detroyed but does not explode counts normally for bpv victory conditions except that only the final economic value is applied, as an addition to the destroyed value, if the unit is captured. This represents the extreme damage done to the vessel.
| By George M. Ebersole (George) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 06:25 pm: Edit |
Loren; could you point to a reference?
| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 08:09 pm: Edit |
The flipside of the SIF thing might be that if that a ship lost all power it would be blown to bits by any further damage, excess or not, if it required power to operate an SIF beyond what's allocated.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit |
George, yes but its obscure and the last time I tried to find it I couldn't. BUT I KNOW IT'S THERE.
It was something about ship developement. I'll find it...and criekey I'll write it down this time!
But give me some time, please.
| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 11:23 pm: Edit |
Was it on the original GURPS thread?
| By George M. Ebersole (George) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 11:44 pm: Edit |
Loren; well, if you can find it that'd be great, but I'm a skeptic 
The only reason I mention that is because years back I tried to submit Klingon Pirates which were loosely based on that book, and the proposal was summarily shot down because of that very fact. One of those copyright-thingies. Seriously though, not to step on your toes, but there's no reference I've ever heard of in my three plus decades of Trekdom. It sounds like a Voyager deal.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 11:55 pm: Edit |
Well, I to am an age old SFB'er. Started playing when the Zip lock version was the star of the Game Store display case.
It was part of a list of things that need to be improved to gain a result. Sort of a passing reference but it's in there.
I remember saying "Ah ha!".
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 10:13 pm: Edit |
Risky Vandalism
Vandalism is a quite a slow process. I may be able to destroy a single SSD box in a controlled area but it requires 5 Boarding parties.
If 5 H&R attacks were to made the damage would be on average 1.66 times as great ( and one could attack SSD boxes outside of the control of the attacker ).
So many races developed systems by which Valdalism could be conducted more quickly.
D15.54___.0 Basic Risky Vandalism
The core reason why it takes so many Boarding parties to destroy an SSD box is that the first two ( or three ) boarding parties are spent "wrangling" the crew unit that might be opperating the SSD box equipment.
One could engage in Vandalism without herding the Crew Unit out nearly as carefully, but such an act encounter a great deal of risk. A Klingon Short sword, Romulan Dagger or even an ISC fire extinguisher could be used at harm the BPs ho are trying to do to jobs at once.
Note that like Vandalism Basic Risky and Very Risky Vandalism require that the area be controlled by the attacker in which case all Guards in the area must have been given up as casualties.
D15.54___.1 Basic Risky Vandalism requires three BPs per turn and shall roll on the table below. Any loose resprent the rendering of one BP "hors de combat".
| Basic Risky Vandalism | |||||
| Regular | Cmdo | Out | Poor | BP Dead | Sys Dead |
| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Y | N |
| . | . | . | 2 | Y | Y |
| 2-5 | 2-6 | 2-5 | 2-4 | N | Y |
| 6 | . | 6 | 5-6 | N | N |
| Very Risky Vandalism | |||||
| Regular | Cmdo | Out | Poor | BP Dead | Sys Dead |
| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Y | N |
| 2 | 2-3 | 2 | 2-3 | Y | Y |
| 3-4 | 4-6 | 3-5 | 4 | N | Y |
| 5-6 | . | 6 | 5-6 | N | N |
| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 11:23 pm: Edit |
I think vandalism may be covered somewhere already...
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 12:32 am: Edit |
It is...D16.54
It's slow because it reguires 5 BPs to kill one box per turn...I was looking for something to speed it up.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit |
SPP:
Do you think an alternate form of vandalism is a good thing?
| By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit |
There is a faster method already. It is called hit-and-run raids.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit |
Really...so you beam the Vandals back to you ship and make a H&R!?! That generates 1 dead turn ( unless you started out by not trying to board and just did H&R all the time.
It also presupposes one has both the power to H&R, the ship has enough transporters to H&R every BP that's under going H&R and that facing down shields will occour every turn.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit |
Also BPs sent over by shuttle can not H&R but can do vandalism.
| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 12:19 am: Edit |
MJC,
You might want to post your suggestion under it's own thread to get it more notice.
| By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit |
I don't like improving vandalism. Destroying 1 critical box in a section you control is different than managing to quickly cripple a ship. If you have sufficient control of a ship to heavily vandalize it, you should have enough boarding parties to either capture or self-destruct it. Some systems really should not be viable vandalism targets; how do you quickly destroy hull boxes?
I would suggest if one insists on trying such a rule that some boxes be immune for vandalism and some boxes will not be destroyed but rather rendered inactive so they can be repaired without wasting limited CDR points or allowing damage to skip to critical systems.
| By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 01:14 am: Edit |
I do not like the rule. It assumes the marines will be suicidal at the Captain's orders.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:38 am: Edit |
David Kass:
Do you know what the chances of coming back alive from an H&R are...33%
That's a suicide mission and it's worse if you're a poor crew.
R.W.:
As much as I think a different kind of damage level would be cool for SSD boxes, I don't think it's going to get by the Steve...Hull & Cargo boxes excluded might be workable.
| By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:46 am: Edit |
For an H&R, it depends on the team's luck and skill.
For your rule it requires stupidity on the part of the marines (I apologize for writing too fast, I meant to say "stupidly suicidal").
Besides, when the marines are on the ship, the Captain could always just threaten to force them into the transporter and send them anyways. Marines on an enemy ship could instead be "constructive" about interpreting the orders. Its much the same way as a BP on a cloaked ship cannot void the cloak...
| By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:46 am: Edit |
For an H&R, it depends on the team's luck and skill.
For your rule it requires stupidity on the part of the marines (I apologize for writing too fast, I meant to say "stupidly suicidal").
Besides, when the marines are on the ship, the Captain could always just threaten to force them into the transporter and send them anyways. Marines on an enemy ship could instead be "constructive" about interpreting the orders. Its much the same way as a BP on a cloaked ship cannot void the cloak...
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit |
I would say that it depends on the Race...The Federation probably would never order risky vandalism but the Klingons probably order basic risky vandalism a lot.
| By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 11:59 am: Edit |
Michael John Campbell:
Whether I think it is a good idea or not, I cannot even begin to agree to your concept. Some ships have more transporters than others, so your rule says that Kzinti Frigates can do this job (three transporters), but the Federation has to use a heavy cruiser (Police Cutter has two transporters, as does the frigate, destroyer, war destroyer, light cruiser, and new light cruiser). Similar problems with other races.
As to the Klingons, you get the D5 series (and larger), but not the F5 (two transporters) or E4 (one transporter).
Then there is the concept of moving defenders. The current rules allow a reaction to hit-and-run raids, i.e., the defender, after seeing the target of a hit-and-run raid, can move guards, or assign more boarding parties as guards (D7.86). So while your troops are wandering around trying to 'wrangle' my crew, my boarding parties are attacking.
The upshot is that your rule as proposed is unworkable if there are any defending boarding parties, and where it is workable allows some races much wider use than others.
| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit |
Simpler, or at least revised, is better... (or so I hear)
Optional Ship Destruction Roll
Explosion Roll:
When the last excess damage roll is taken on a unit roll 1D6 for destruction as follows:
Add the number of Control Stations excluding Flag Bridge and Security Stations.
+
Any one Legendary Officer excluding Weapons Officer, Doctor and Marine Major.
+
Crew quality shift.
On a modified roll of 6 or less the unit explodes normally otherwise it is reduced to a lifeless hulk. Apply remaining hits applying excess damage results to crew (except for the last two). At this point, and for subsequent damage, all special systems, Cloak/UIM/T-bombs etc are considered "any weapons" hits on the DAC. Then, after all damage is done roll 1D6/6 and remove that % of crew units (except for the last two) and roll for all L.O.s present to survive applying original crew quality and any one L.O. to these rolls.
Should the unit not explode it becomes an inert powerless vessel.
Catastrophic Destruction interaction:
If catastrophic destruction is declared then count only those control stations remaining in the (potentially) exploding portion of the unit irregardless of seperation success/failure. If the Unit fails to seperate L.O.s may still affect the roll if on board the failed seperating unit but the control stations on the (non)departing Unit do not.
The Hulked Unit
Further damage:
Ignore excess damage hits. All systems may be damaged once only a second time in this manner and are considered blown off the ship and permanently gone until the ship undergoes repairs at a facility/by a repair ship. Completely fill in the systems box for each hit, whether X'ed already or not, damaged at this point. When the very last box is filled in the keel breaks and the unit is disintegrated.
Operation:
A nondestroyed Unit may be recovered, boarded and fought for and repaired normally using self repair. Control and security stations do not give bp combat bonuses unless at least one point of power is present/restored.
Disengagement
The hulked unit may not disengage by itself unless it has at least one impulse engine system box. It may be disengaged by distance or towed away.
Further destruction/self-destruction
The hulked unit cannot explode from further fire. The Unit may self destruct normally if Orion or Romulan. All other races may self destruct their hulked unit if they have at least one t-bomb or mine on board.
Repair
The crew may attempt to repair anything except warp power systems using the normal repair rules. Should the repair capacity be destroyed or used up prior to the Unit being hulked then a damage control number rating of 2 may be used to repair one point of impulse power.
If a Unit with repair capacity docks with the hulk then that Unit may make normal repairs not exceeding what is listed below for self repair.
If the hulk is alone and crewed after the scenario the following is used for campaign repairs: 1/4 of all individual systems (minimum 1 each) are repaired. 2/3 of each power system type is repaired, including warp. Do not count blown off boxes for this calculation. Blown off systems may not be repaired except that one box of each of the following may be restored if all have been blown off: control station, impulse, one warp. No further repairs are possible under any circumstance or rule until the unit is overhauled at a Starbase or FRD. A size class 4 or smaller hulk may be overhauled at a BATS or by spending one campaign turn docked with a repair ship.
The hulked unit is worth a % of the original economic bpv based on number of system boxes totally blownoff/original number of system boxes for scrap or may be built on to reduce the cost of a "new" unit.
Victory points
A unit that is destroyed but does not explode counts as destroyed normally for bpv victory conditions, irregardless of whether it is captured or disengages.
| By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 05:25 pm: Edit |
Argh... one more little thing... add in undestroyed control stations not all...
Optional Ship Destruction Roll
Explosion Roll:
When the last excess damage roll is taken on a unit roll 1D6 for destruction as follows:
Add the number of undestroyed Control Stations available at that instant excluding Flag Bridge and Security Stations.
+
Any one Legendary Officer excluding Weapons Officer, Doctor and Marine Major.
+/-
Crew quality shift.
On a modified roll of 6 or less the unit explodes normally otherwise it is reduced to a lifeless hulk. Apply remaining hits applying excess damage results to crew (except for the last two). At this point, and for subsequent damage, all special systems, Cloak/UIM/T-bombs etc are considered "any weapons" hits on the DAC. Then, after all damage is done roll 1D6/6 and remove that % of crew units (except for the last two) and roll for all L.O.s present to survive applying original crew quality and any one L.O. to these rolls.
Should the unit not explode it becomes an inert powerless vessel.
Catastrophic Destruction interaction:
If catastrophic destruction is declared then count only those control stations remaining in the (potentially) exploding portion of the unit irregardless of seperation success/failure. If the Unit fails to seperate L.O.s may still affect the roll if on board the failed seperating unit but the control stations on the (non)departing Unit do not.
The Hulked Unit
Further damage:
Ignore excess damage hits. All systems may be damaged once only a second time in this manner and are considered blown off the ship and permanently gone until the ship undergoes repairs at a facility/by a repair ship. Completely fill in the systems box for each hit, whether X'ed already or not, damaged at this point. When the very last box is filled in the keel breaks and the unit is disintegrated.
Operation:
A nondestroyed Unit may be recovered, boarded and fought for and repaired normally using self repair. Control and security stations do not give bp combat bonuses unless at least one point of power is present/restored.
Disengagement
The hulked unit may not disengage by itself unless it has at least one impulse engine system box. It may be disengaged by distance or towed away.
Further destruction/self-destruction
The hulked unit cannot explode from further fire. The Unit may self destruct normally if Orion or Romulan. All other races may self destruct their hulked unit if they have at least one t-bomb or mine on board.
Repair
The crew may attempt to repair anything except warp power systems using the normal repair rules. Should the repair capacity be destroyed or used up prior to the Unit being hulked then a damage control number rating of 2 may be used to repair one point of impulse power.
If a Unit with repair capacity docks with the hulk then that Unit may make normal repairs not exceeding what is listed below for self repair.
If the hulk is alone and crewed after the scenario the following is used for campaign repairs: 1/4 of all individual systems (minimum 1 each) are repaired. 2/3 of each power system type is repaired, including warp. Do not count blown off boxes for this calculation. Blown off systems may not be repaired except that one box of each of the following may be restored if all have been blown off: control station, impulse, one warp. No further repairs are possible under any circumstance or rule until the unit is overhauled at a Starbase or FRD. A size class 4 or smaller hulk may be overhauled at a BATS or by spending one campaign turn docked with a repair ship.
The hulked unit is worth a % of the original economic bpv based on number of system boxes totally blownoff/original number of system boxes for scrap or may be built on to reduce the cost of a "new" unit.
Victory points
A unit that is destroyed but does not explode counts as destroyed normally for bpv victory conditions, irregardless of whether it is captured or disengages.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit |
SPP:
I think you mis-understand my proposed rule.
One does not use three transporter actions to commit Basic Risky Vandalism, but rather three BPs that are already aboard the enemy vessel ( having captured the area where the Risky Vandalism is to occour).
Yes, there is the inital beam over but the troops could have been sent over by shuttle if the the correct area ( or connecting areas ) has been captured.
What's really going on in essance is, 5 BP Vandalism ( D16.54 ) is being traded in for 3 BP vandaims with a chance of a BP harmed and a chance of failure to destroy the SSD box.
As to guards...as I understand it, in order to have control of a combat location, the guards in an area must have been given up as casulaties or hence the area would still be counted as contested and therefore regular vandalism could not occour.
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