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Do X2 attrition units really serve a purpose, given the timeline we've set? At least before the Xorks arrive?

I thought the Trade Wars would be a period of border skirmishes, not the all-out warfare that you see when you start sacrificing pilots.

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By Charles E. Leiserson, Jr. (Bester) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:41 pm: Edit

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A Lyran-native fighter would have a small ESG field (radius 0, capacitor can hold 3 points power, must be recharged on the carrier).

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Or a Lyran fighter-pod that does that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Unfortunatly, the response I've received from similar ideas has been what's to stop othr races from copying such a obtainable device and copying it thus making the ESG nearly useless.

It's a cool idea but I think this is what the review would be.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Part of the problem I have with some of these proposals is that they seem to be attempts to sneak in X-fighters for races other than the Hydrans, and my understanding was that SVC has ruled that the Stinger-X is the only X-fighter.

Loren, you've looked at this more than I have so correct me if I'm wrong. But my impression was that SVC said he would consider very modest upgrades in the guise of mega-x packs for fighters; something on the order of a pack that allows Type-VII drones where the standard mega-pack for drone fighters only carrys Type-Is. There might be similar modest upgrades for non-drone using fighters based on mega-x packs. But I suspect that anything much beyond that will be shot down as a violation of the "Stinger-X is the only x-fighter" ruling.

Not trying to keep new things from being suggested here, since I could be wrong. But I think they need to stay somewhere in the ballpark of what fighters can currently do.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Alan,

SVC has also shown interest in a X-megapack and that's what we're talking about.

Things a X-pack can do for a plasma fighter:

1) Bolt torps (either D and K only or any fighter-carried torp - Gorns get a carronade?)

2) Additional torpedo launch per turn (no addtional torps carried, just can launch more than 1)

3) Free torp sabotting.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Note that I for one wouldn't conculde that if SVC says X1 fighters will only be availible for the Hydrans, it therefore follows that ONLY HYDRANS will get X2 fighters.

X2 CVs could be fighters in the X2 period that have parity with X2 Hydrans fighters or they could be launching fighters that have aprity to X1 fighters.

I just don't think we should take what SVC has said about X1 to automatically mean anything for X2.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:21 am: Edit

MJC: I would tend to agree with that though I think the statement will hold at least some weight. That is, in X2 the equivelent of a fighters may be so different that the statement that the Stinger-X is the only X-Fighter may still hold.

I.e. There are sometimes ways to get what one wants without changing the rules, if one is flexable. er...Daniel son.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

How would people feel about allowing the X2 Suicide Shuttle to upgrade to 4+4+4+1h? In this configuration it would do 24 damage on a hit.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

Hmmm. Isn't the X2 shuttle the advanced shuttle from J2? Does it have a bigger suicide capacity?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

Tos;

Personnally, I would probably prefer to see the max damage not increased, but allow X2 ships to arm them to full strength in one turn. But whether we do that, or use your suggestion, or not change them at all, doesn't really make that much of a difference to me. In other words I would not have any objections to your suggestion.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:47 am: Edit

Mike: No but it take 8 to kill and can move speed 8. Nothing has really defined the X2 shuttle yet but I've submitted that it be the J2 A-Shuttle with a shield pod (add two points). Beyond that I saw no reason to do more with it. However, I suppose a couple things are in order.

SS: One could say the new engines add a bit to the strength of a SS. Consider all X2 SS to start with one energy point over the normal loading.

SP: Can load X-drones but still limited to 6 spaces. Damage to the shield pod does not cause it to blossom.

WW: Can move it's full speed and utilize the shield pod. Damage to the shield pod, as always, comes first. Explosion period lasts longer (how much?).
Ship can move speed 6 instead of 4.
Arming cost goes up?

Anyway, just some suggestions.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:57 am: Edit

How about this for a wild idea.

Same old SS arming ( I think it'll have MRS Drone launch abilitites personnally ) but you can build an SS and SP concurrently ( And SS/SP would take three turns to arm with six space of drones or 4 turns with 8 ) so after it blooms as an SP the BUS still keeps going and does SS damage.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:11 am: Edit

MJC:

Though we've argued back and forth on the X2-Tholian thread, I must say I like your idea for an SS/SP combination. After all, the drones are loaded externally to the shuttle while I believe the bomb would be internal. I can't think of any compelling reason why you couldn't design a shuttle that would perform both missions simultaneously.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:17 am: Edit

Here's another wild one.

The Sabotted Sucide Shuttle.
The arming energy is same however because the arming energy is warp power that warp power may be used by the X2 shuttle to move at higher speeds by allowing the shuttle move under an intensified warp feild.

For every 0.5 points of warp power applied to the SSS over and above the maximum arming level of a conventional SS, the SSS may increase its speed when moving by 1. There is a limit of 4 points of warp power being applied in a single turn to the SSS and the holding energy ( if any ) of an SSS must be warp power.
Warp boosted packs double the natural speed of the shuttle and not the enhanced shuttle speed.

Thus you can arm a simple 18/10/8 SS with 3+3+3 warp power but for 4+4+4 you can arm an 18/10/14 or even 18/5/22 SSS.


In the X2 period what an SS needs is not a larger warhead but rather a faster speed without automatically the halving of the toughness of the unit.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit

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I can't think of any compelling reason why you couldn't design a shuttle that would perform both missions simultaneously.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

On a different matter - somewhere (I don't remember if it was here or in the X1R thread) I broached the topic of differentiating attrition units by race. I want to bring it up again.

For the drone using races, a squadron of megafighters has a greater total drone capacity and superior launch rate than does a PF flotilla, even if the PFs are the drone versions that sacrifice direct firepower for extra drone racks. Also, a Hydran fighter squadron outguns a Hydran PF flotilla untill the charges are exhausted. But with megafighters, each fighter hellbore has two charges and each fighter fusion beam has three.

But it is I believe pretty generally acknowledged that for the Tholians and the plasma races, their PF flotillas rather dramatically outperform their fighter squadrons, even with megafighters.

So if X2 attrition units are going to be used, how about if the races optimized by fielding X2 fighters but not PFs for the Hydrans/drone users and X2 PFs but not fighters for the Tholians/plasma races?

The Orions, Lyrans, and Seltorians might be special cases. The Orions would tend to use what was available in their operating area, while the Lyrans and Selts (if they return during the X2 era) have direct fire PFs but seeking weapon capability only in their fighters. Assuming that they were still allied with the Klingons, or that they developed the capability to produce their own fighters and drones based on Klingon models and technology transfer, the Lyrans and Selts might be the only races along with the Orions to field both PFs and fighters.

This would give all the races X2 attrition unit capabilities but provide more racial differentiation than the current situation where everybody has both types of units (including conjecturally the Feds).

Opinions?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:45 am: Edit

What if we allowed an X2 shuttle to use its own shuttle engines to power iteself or hold itself as a suicide shuttle? I'm not a big fan at giving X2 ships extra omph, but since they are likely to have relatively few shuttles I don't think it will hurt significantly.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:56 am: Edit

I can understand the theory that few races would develop carrier based attrition units of both types. Its defending fixed installations that get us in trouble. Historically fixed installations use fighters and bombers, and I don't see a reason to change this.

I can see groups like the Lyran ditching front-line carriers, but even they might find it valuable to maintain a unit that can support ground launched units.

Likewise I can't see Hydrans or Kzinti ditching PF technology. There are missions a PF can perform that a fighter can’t.

Unfortunately I think we are stuck with at least some level of attrition units. The only way I can see around them is to put in place a firm treaty limiting their allowed offensive deployment.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Alan,

Megapacks do not give increased drone launch capability, just increased ability to carry drones.

While first-rate fighters do usually launch more drones (the MRN-D will match any squadron launch rate), PFs have better non-drone defense and offense ability. How many fighters mount P-1s and ADDs?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:52 pm: Edit

John:

I know megapacks don't increase drone launch rate per se. But remote controlled fighters can launch all of their drones at once. That's 8 drones from each TADS-CM. How does an MRN-D compete with that? (Using a mass-launch from remote controlled fighters can cause problems with seeking weapon control if you're not careful, of course.)

More generally, yes PFs do have capabilities that fighters do not, and (usually) vice versa. But my conception (I may be mistaken on this) is that after the devastation of the General War + the ISC Pacification + the Andromedan Invasion, all the races are in dire straits economically. But they still live in a dangerous galaxy and need combat capability. So each race may sacrifice some specific capabilities to enhance capabilities that are more valuable to them.

Specifically with respect to attrition units, races might like to produce both technologically advanced fighters and technologically advanced PFs but can't afford to research both tech paths. So each race makes a decision as to which is more cost effective overall, with some races choosing PFs and some fighters.

That at least was my thinking when I started this particular line of inquiry.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:00 pm: Edit

A MRN-D has 4 A-racks.

It can build up 8 drones in an end-of-turn/beggining of turn wave.

And do it again later.

And space them out so they aren't T-bomb bait.

PF are still cheaper than ships.

None of that invalidates your perspective on fighters but suggests that the divide isn't as great an you suggest.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Tos: Funny, I figured that more shuttles would be in order for X2, especially given the circomstances of the era (nation building and such).

I could see an XCC typically with six shuttle boxes and two drogue bays carrying a complement of four A-Admins, one A-HTS and two drogues.

Of cuorse the smaller ships would have less. The CM would have four shuttle and two drogues. A CL might have four and two as well. A DD would have two + two. And FF would have two and zero.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

I'm sort of in between. The Fed XCM I have been testing has four standard shuttles, and a pair of XMRS shuttles. The Klingon XD7 has just the normal four shuttles, but a pair of drogue bays. One ship is more flexible, the other more combat oriented. Different race, different flavor.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Actually Mike, you remind me that the A-HTS could be replaced by two A-MRS or one of the Admins could as well.

Consider the utility of having 3x A-Admins,1x A-MRS, 1x A-HTS and 2x Drougue on an XCC.

Yes, it would make for a somewhat longer duel but a darned interesting one.