Loren, I wasn't saying less shuttles per class, I was saying less shuttles per BPV. 1000 BPV of X2 will likely have less shuttles then 1000 BPV of GW.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 07:04 pm: Edit

I still think that the ships will not have drouge bays. And an HTS is for cargo ships, not line ships. And any ship carrying more than 1xMRS is just nuts.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 02:26 am: Edit

I like drogue bays, but agree that more than one MRS is unlikely.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 02:43 am: Edit

Tos: Because X2 ships will be higher BPV in general. I get ya.

Ya, 1x MRS and probably not on small units. I would figure one on each XCC, XCM could buy one, Police flagships and what ever replaced the HDW and any Carrier types if there is to be any. Also any Survey Ship. Drogues are going to replace the need for MRS some anyway. I wouldn't want to see MRS become all that common.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 02:55 am: Edit

I'd rather have extra shuttles than drogues.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:21 am: Edit

Modular Admin Shuttle:

YIS - 197

Standard Package: Performs in all respects like an Advanced Admin Shuttle.

Firepower Augmentation Package: Plasma races add one FA F-Torp (X-ships may substitute L-Torp) and a 360 ph-3. Ship must pay arming costs for torp, as if arming a plasma fighter. Drone races add either two drones (only Type-I, Type-VI, or (on X-ships) Type-VII - can only be launched in FA) and a 360 ph-3. Drones must come from ship's drone racks/cargo. Hydrans substitute a Gatling phaser for the ph-3. Tholians and Lyrans add 360 ph-2. Shuttle cannot carry boarding parties, cargo, be used as Wild Weasel or Suicide Shuttle, perform lab functions, or be used for any other special mission in this configuration.

Electronic Augmentation Package: Acts as "poor man's MRS" with 2 EW points it can lend to launching ship. In this configuration, shuttle can be used as Wild Weasel or Lab but cannot perform any other special missions or carry BPs or cargo.

Transport Package: Doubles the amount of "stuff" (boarding parties, cargo, etc) shuttle can carry. In this configuration the speed is reduced to 4, the shuttle cannot use warp boost packs, and it loses any Small Target Modifier bonus it would otherwise qualify for. Only special mission it can be used for in this configuration is Suicide Shuttle, but maximum "bomb size" is increased to 24 points.

Counter-Mine Package: Shuttle acts as Mine Sweeping Shuttle in all respects. This configuration CAN be used by non-minesweepers

Ground Support Package: Shuttle acts like a GAS in all respects.

Unlike true MRSs, Modular Admin Shuttles can be carried by any ship. But non-X ships must pay 2 points per shuttle bay (not shuttle box) to be able to use them. Points can be either force points from total BPV allowance, or Commander's Option points. Any shuttles in other than standard configuration at the start of the scenario count against Weapon Status limits on special mission shuttles. Under no circumstances can the ship start the scenario with more Modular shuttles in non-standard configuration than it has converted bays. During scenario, conversion to a different configuration requires 3 turns except for conversion to/from Transport configuration, which requires 4 turns. Each bay can only work on one conversion at a time.

Not sure about BPV for the shuttles themselves but should be more than Advanced Admin, less than true MRS. BPV might vary slightly by race due to different weapon packages. Even X-ships would not have these included in BPV. They would still have to buy them individually, like MRSs.

X2-ships carried an improved version with speed 12/24 with boost packs/6 in Transport configuration. X2 version also has 3 EW points to lend, rather than 2.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:31 am: Edit

Second thoughts on BPV for Modular Admin Shuttles - my initial thought was that an MRS has both weapons enhancements and EW capabilities simultaneously, while this is one or the other. Hence the suggestion that BPV be lower than for an MRS. But this thing can also do missions (minesweeping, ground assault) that the MRS doesn't do. So maybe the BPV should be equal to MRS BPV.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Alan,

Have you been watching the old series Space: 1999? You've just recreated the Eagle.

The firepower module is a little too good, IMHO.

I would recommend 2x Type VII drones, for drone-chuckers, 2x D-torps (sabotted) for plasmas and 2x P-2 (FA) for everyone else.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 09:41 pm: Edit

This is my proposal for the Federation X2 Fighter.

I would really like to see the Feds, in X2 or X1R, move to a multi role, single fighter, and move away from the dozen or more varients.

Take a gander...

http://home.comcast.net/~andro-siege/federation/ships/F-Wraith.gif

The fighters have three points of discretionary power that can be used for EW, shields or to recharge the onboard photons.

They would carry 4 Type VII drones. Be able to launch 2 non-phaser weapons per turn. The P1 would be a GW P1, not an X-P1.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:05 pm: Edit

A fighter that cannot be cripped by a T-bomb is a powerful fighter.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Cfant:

I disagree with the speed of 25. Presumably, you intend that boost packs or megafighter systems will increase this to 30, as with the Hydran Stinger-X. By the X2 era, I would think that this capability would be inherent in the fighter, rather than an add-on. Just make the speed 30(or 31), and be done with it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:55 pm: Edit

30. It doesn't have impulse to go 31.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:59 pm: Edit

John, doesn't it say crippled at ten?

CFant, I agree with Alan about the speed but would add that the fighter is not compatable with the Mega system. So Spd 30 but Mega advances are built in so no added mega system possible.

Otherwise I like it a lot!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Loren,

It also has a 6-point shield. That means its first T-bomb only gives it 4 damage, assuming no reinforcement is possible.

What bothers me is the 2x photon on top of everything else. This is a hellacious fighter. it has a 360 P-G in addition to everything else. It takes 2 T-bombs to cripple it and they won't kill it, and it can recharge its own photons...

It's pretty over the top, even for X2.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:19 pm: Edit

I could see speed 30, and yes you would not put a Mega Pack on it, as that type of enhancement would be built into the design.

The primary reason I felt speed 25 was ok was that it is still a fighter. But if folks think that speed 30 is cool, I am all for it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 12:45 am: Edit

Six point shield, I didn't see that. Huh, the biggest shield I'd ever even thought to propose was a two point. Wow.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 08:11 am: Edit

Part of the reason I made these guys so tough is that I think there would be far fewer of them than the number of fighters during the GW.

So, instead having 6 carriers and several FCRs for support, you would have one carrier and 2 FCRs in support.

Also, I think the BPV may need to go to 30.

It's like a little, single man PF. The Feds, of all races would go in for something like that. It is still a lot less powerful than a PF, but it is far more powerful than any fighter seen before. And the introduction of the Andro MWPs shows a start of a line between PFs and Fighters.

The photons would take a total of 3 turns to arm them both, and that is if you are not using that discrentionary power for EW and whatnot.

Perhaps it is indeed over the top, but it just about the coolest thing I have ever drawn and am very happy with it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:08 am: Edit

Hey, I wrote my share of lead ducks for X2, also.

Suggestions:

No fighter has a 360 phaser. Try a FH P-G, which beats anybody else's FA stuff.

Two photon charges, 1 photon launcher
(and shooting the photon shouldn't count against seeking weapon launches anyway)

Please tell me that the shield doesn't regenerate every round...

Suggest shield+fighter hit points should not exceed 16. That's 10 damage + 6 shield, 12 damage + 4 shield, stc. A single seat fighter than can survive a TB is itself pretty nifty.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:23 am: Edit

John;

I point out that the A-10M can already take 18 damage points (16 base + 2 from the megafighter system) and the Tholian Spider-IIM and Spider-IIIM fighters can similarly take 16 (14 + 2) points. So that's three (may be others, but I can't think of any off hand) late GW-era single-space fighters that can already eat a T-bomb and not be crippled.

And there are a few fighters with 360 phaser-3s (including the Federation modified shuttle craft from J2 (is it called the F7? - don't remember the designation) which has two 360 phasers-3s).

I do agree that a 6-point regenerating shield is probably too much for a fighter, even at X2. But if the shield doesn't regenerate, for game purposes it doesn't really differ much from just giving the fighter more hit points. How about making the shield two points, but it does regenerate until the fighter is crippled, at which point regeneration stops.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:33 am: Edit

IIRC, when Chris and I worked on the Wraith the shield did not regenerate, but could be repaired at 1:1 until the fighter was crippled. Also, the power could be put into reinforcement, effectively making it 9-points.⁴²

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:39 am: Edit

A random thought on fighter shields for X2:

Fighters can not currently operate in Nebulae as they (and all shuttlecraft) are destroyed by the Nebula effects. If X2 fighters are ultimately adopted, and if they have shields, how about a rules change that shielded fighters can operate in a Nebula, but the shield damage-reduction function is lost? Instead, it's the shield that allows the fighter to survive in the Nebula. A crippled fighter would completely lose its shield capabilities so crippling a fighter in a Nebula instantly destroys it.

This would only affect a few battles, but would be an interesting flavor element. And it would change the dynamics of those few Nebula battles dramatically. Since ships can only operate min-shields in Nebula, carriers would go from being worthless to extremely important in Nebula combat. In fact unless X2 ships had an excemption from the Nebula/shield rules or else had minimum shields significantly stronger than even X1 min-shields, carriers with shielded fighters would be the forces of choice when combat in a Nebula proved necessary.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:41 am: Edit

Alan,

Fair enough.

Actually, shields are far superior to hit points for a fighter even if the shield doesn't regenerate. Shield points wouldn't count toward crippling.

I'd even go for a 4-pt regenerating shield with some hit point reductions to assure that a second T-bomb is a definite kill even after the shield regenerates. That would be a 12-damage fighter, BTW.

Shields for a fighter are good. Regenerating shields for a fighter are really powerful stuff.

I am not as willing to conceed the 360-degree P-G. Are there any fighters with 360-degree phasers besides that Fed F-7 (which was a cut-back admin shuttle in point of fact)? I can find one exception that proves the rule: the Thol Spider-II. All others are *shuttles*, not fighters, such as the E-2 and E-3 SWACs.


EDIT:

Robert,

Since the shield doesn't regenerate, suggest it reinforces at 1:1 but, like starships, repairs at 1:2.

Do the photon(s) hold for free? Sounds like it...

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:54 am: Edit

---

Quote:

Since the shield doesn't regenerate, suggest it reinforces at 1:1 but, like starships, repairs at 1:2.

---

---

Quote:

Do the photon(s) hold for free? Sounds like it...

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

John;

Well, the Spider-IIP also has the 360 ph-3. (The Spider-IIP replaces the disruptor with a ph-2, so its weaponry consists of FA ph-2 + 360 ph-3 instead of FA disruptor + 360 ph-3. Less crunch-power except at point blank range, but it never has to return to the base to rearm. Unfortunately, no Tholian carriers are allowed to use the Sp-IIP. The rules explicitly restrict it to bases and planets only.) I honestly don't recall if the Spider-I has a 360 ph-3 since I use it so seldom.

I think the F-7, though ,as you say, a cut-down admin shuttle, is in fact a fighter under the rules. I agree that SWACs and MRSs are not fighters. Other than the Tholians and the F-7, I can't think of any other fighters with 360 phasers, though there may be others. Certainly, such fighters are rare, and you may be right that extending that capability to a ph-g is just too much.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit

CFant: I too have longed for the "Single Man PF" type of craft and if that is the line your thinking of then we can view it as something different than a fighter per se.

That is, to say it's too powerful to be a fighter is fine because its not really a SHUTTLE FIGHTER. It's a new class between fighters and PF (and INT). You might have to make it a double size unit though. Still, take a CVA size ship and put 12 of these on them and pow, you have a pretty big kick.

BPV of 30 sounds close but not more.

Shield perhaps should not regenerate but maybe could be repaired 1:1 power wise.

Not even PFs get a 360° Ph-G so I'd agree that it should have an arc of FH.

I forget, does it have chaff and ADD's. A combo would be very effective and would be something I'd think would be designed in.