Indeed Mike. Mega Fighters make the late years fighters incredibly more deadly, to anything, including X-ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Ya, pretty much. Though, I'd have to see good proof that a carrier would'nt be more vulerable against an X-Squadron. I.e. the X-Squadron is more capable of bypassing the fighters and going for the carrier than other ships.

Though, I'd agree that late fighters with mega-packs are bad ass. If they could carry X-Drones that would be one more notch to their belt.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

You could argue that megapacks ARE X-tech for fighters.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

That would be a pretty early introduction of X-Tech. But I think I get your meaning.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:42 am: Edit

There's no way for a group of X-ships to bypass fighters and get to the carrier. With the cost of X-ships, you will be fighting SCSs and some of their own X-ships....a Fed SCS with F-111s F-14Ds and F-18s all with Mega Packs can throw enough drones to make even X-ships cry uncle.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:51 am: Edit

Good point about SCS's. CVA should probably be generally upgraded to SCS's by X2 if their are still around at all.

However, I'm not so sure an X-squadron couldn't get passed the fighters. If you know you are facing fighters you could give them a real hard time. But then, having to face X-escorts... yeouch.

The trick to escaping drone packs is...well, gee, having just remembered that tactic I think I'll put it in the Term Papers thread.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:38 am: Edit

Loren, thing about getting arouond the fighters to get at the carriers means you have to be moving faster than the fighters and the carrier.

In the 190s, the fighters you will be facing will be as fast as you are, and a carrier can move as fast as it likes to, especially an all drone carrier force. Added to that is that if you expend your weapons on killing the terror fighters drones or the fighters themselves, then most SCSs can come in with their fighters (espcially Fed F-14s and F-111s) and kill you.

As for escaping drone packs by distance and maneuver and whatnot, you can only do that for so long before the enemies X-squadron shows up and pounces on you.

I ran several playtests with X cruisers and fighters, and the fighters did just fine, and that was BEFORE mega packs.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Megapacks do not add that much to a fighter's drone power. In most cases it's an additional P-3 and 2x I drone, what normally amounts to an extra turn's launch capability. Assault fighters work a little differently.

Where it does make a difference is the megafighter can go at packed speeds without the fragility induced by warp packs. And adds 2 damage points to the fighter.

Megapacks aren't cheap, BTW. Cost is +50% of the fighter's BPV. The example from J2 is a Fed F-15DM. 21 points just for the fighter+megapack. Take a SCS group with speed-32 drones and 2 squadrons of megapacked fighters, by the time you're done buying the escorts, you're looking at facing an X-squadron of 3-5 ships. Add an X-squadron of your own and you're facing an X-fleet.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Yes, Mega fighters are expensive. The point was that X-ships can't get around them. Even 3 or 4 X-ships will still be in a lot of trouble against that many fighters and the carrier, and the escorts.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Yes.

They can keep the X-squadron on its toes up until the fighters run out of drones.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 09:15 pm: Edit

By which time the reinforcements will be there.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 09:15 pm: Edit

An X-squadron could go defensive to run through or dodge the fighters. The fighters could follow but would be facing T-Bombs. Now the carriers in trouble and the X-Squadron can disengage leving the fighters behind to suffocate.

It would be hard but not impossible. It's a dangerous version of break through and sack the quarterback.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Loren....if you are going to bumrush a three full squadrons of Federation fighters youo deserve what youo get.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

OK. If you get to pull hypothetical reinforcements out of a hat, so can I.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:53 pm: Edit

John, what I am saying is that X-ships are not going to be able to defeat the fighters drones that easily or quickly. A conservatice drone strike will force the X-ships to go where you want them, or at least keep them away long enouugh to either...

A. Call reinforcments.

B. Leave.

Either way, they won't be able to do anything to you, and you won't be able to do anything to them.

So, fighters are still quite viable and deadly against even X-ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 12:05 am: Edit

Well, I once was playing against a very good player and pulled it off with GW ships. I lost the battle only because the other guy called me and rushed past me, getting behind his fighters again. It was an insane game, the losses I took going in and the lower effectiveness of GW weapons meant that the carrier, while damaged, made it past me. At this point I could not return through/by the fighters again. I then went on the offensive against the fighters but the carrier and escorts finnished me.

X-ships on the other hand could go full defensive with all phasers and drones etc. and have torps powerfull enough to blow the carrier. They then would move the battle away from the fighters. Or slowly wear them down. Then destroy the escorts. X-Ships have the resources.

This would be hard. Great fighters and good ships do balance out the situation. The point being the X-Torps have a one turn (or fast two turns with fast loads) ability that GW didn't have before.

I could be wrong, I haven't played it with X-Ships and Mega-Packs (and SCS with X-Escorts). The battle I did play failed because I didn't reach the carrier with enough one turn crunch. (If I had had fast loading torps the following turn would have been different.)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 02:00 am: Edit

Cfant,

I never said "easily or quickly".

To the contrary, you seemed dead-set convinced that the fighter+drone CVA group was superior.

Drones are a good weapon and as tech goes up they get nothing but better. The CVA group kicking out frones as fast as it can may even have a temporary advantage...'till they stop to reload. For the X-squadron it would be an maneuver-endurance game to try to survive to that point. By no means easy or quick or assurred win for the X-squad, but not a slam-dunk for the CVA either.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Loren said, in the XP thread:

---

Quote:

I saw X1R happening the time you say XP starts, Tos. It's just I don't see a overwhelming reason until after Y205.

Until after the Andros are defeated every thing is focused on fighting that war. Almost no time is available to send in ships for refits. However, after the war the tattered state of the fleets and the questionable state of relations between old enemies would mean something needs to be done fast. No time to wait for new builds.

---

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 11:00 am: Edit

Removing YIS outliers:
X1 covers Y181-Y184
R10 covers Y175
J2 covers Y173-Y178
X2 covers Y205-215

This leaves us opportunities throughout the entire ISC and Andro wars, Y185-Y205. The two modules we have tasked to fill this gap are XP and X1R. Looking now at how narrowly focused each of the published modules is asking two modules to cover twenty years seems like it might not be enough.

Maybe many of the XP ships do not require an SSD change. XP without SSD changes could extend certain X1 capabilities to most of the fleet just by making an R-section rule and a MSC. Other XP ships would be sufficiently refitted to require a new SSD thus allowing us to make a true R-module. I can’t help but think this would sell better if the XP refits started in Y185.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Jeff Tonglet: You make good points. I could see it that way.

Tos: I'm not sure, it might. Though I don't see the value over what Jeff just posted. Personally, I wouldn't want to see XP for the ISC wars. Perhaps during the late Andro wars and then ony those ships that stay in the home galaxy (XP needing time to work out bugs).

It would indeed be interesting to psooibly have a shake down period for units with XP for the first couple years after introduction into each class.

Should be discussed in the XP thread though.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 01:39 am: Edit

From a snippet I heard in an F&E ISC War thread it looks like the 'fighting' in the ISC wars was historically rather limited.

One thing that keeps pointing me back to an early XP adoption is that all the repair facilities set up during the General War run out of things to repair once the ISC show up to stop the fighting.

Then I run into the problem that placing XP so early will dramatically change the shape of the Andro War. I might be OK with that if only a small number of ships (just new construction?) are converted to XP tech.

Then there is marketing to consider. If the YIS date is too late people some people will lose interest. If the YIS date is too early some people might say its too large a change.

Then there is the tech curve to consider. If you can build a ship with XP in Y186 why didn't you build all new designs with X-tech designed in? Examples of these ships are few but include the ISC HDD, some Wyn Fish and a few low volume SC2 ships. The ISC HDD was emergency production so can be excepted. The Wyn Fish were purpose built state of the art designs. For now I’m not concerned with SC2.

No answers here, just musing out loud.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:00 am: Edit

It seems to me that XP should be late Andro war (maybe middle) partly because overcomming the technical difficulties of applying XP to ships previously deemed not suited to X-Tech will take time.

During the ISC occupation the races may have XP R&D going on but they are not really desparate. They are probably still in that mind set of going with what they've got already. Rebuilding current designs.

Come the Andro invasion and every one gets desparate real quick. But they can't do anything on XP right away. They are struggling to much just then. But once they have a chance to hold their ground and analize the situation XP would flood into the fleets as fast as they could.

This creates an even bigger reason to build/convert SBs to SBXs.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 09:31 am: Edit

The ISC invasion would seem to be a time of retrenching to me. Going with the tried and true that does work. Since the economies are already in shambles and the little R section note saying the ship production went to record numbers during the Pacification campaign. IMO that would involve sticking with proven designs since any new designs would have teething problem.

And leaving XP for the desperation involved in the middle years of the Andro Invasion.

The problem is that the very argument that sticks with "proven" designs during the Pacification could also be applied to the Andro Invasion.

But I think we can get around that by simply referring to the established Op Unity history. Things got so desperate that even the Lyrans and Kzinti got along (well at least somewhat).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

I’ve slept on it and here is what I came up with. Let me know what you think.

In Y186 the GW ground to a halt as the ISC Pacification program enforced the peace. This left each empire in a difficult position. They knew they couldn’t take on the ISC fleet with their fleet in the condition it was currently in but they also knew there was no way they were going to submit to ISC annexing of roughly half their territory. During this period known as the ISC War shipbuilding reached its height giving the Galactic Empires the edge they needed to fight off the Andros. {OK, so we all already knew all that.}

During this period of enforced peace most races began an upgrade program designed to improve their existing ships. Having their ships confined by the ISC to a much smaller region and not involved in continuous combat made these refits much easier to apply than the similar Y175 refits.

These refits are collectively known as the Y188 refits and it should be assumed that this refit applies to all ships as of 1 Jan Y188. All scenarios set after Y188 should assume these refits are already installed. Where necessary, such as on the MSC, the Y175 refit was acknowledged by placing a ‘y’ after the ship description. The Y188 replaces the ‘y’ designator with an ‘x’. For example {insert extended example showing the proper order to place the lower case initials a,y,x,b in conjunction with + refits.} {Loren notes that the ISC will be too busy in Y188 to refit anything. Perhaps their Y188 refit happens at some other date? Possibly it never happens at all? An ISC that upgrades all of its rear firing F-torps to L-torps is scary, but probably necessary if they are to be used as designed against PFs and Mega-Fighters.}

For the drone using races the benefit of the Y188 refit provided both a slight increase in firepower with a simplified logistical system. This was accomplished by adapting every ship, fighter and PF in the fleet to accommodate X-drones. As it turned out this was not as difficult as first feared. Rather than swap out the entire drone rack as was done in Y175 the engineers were able to modify the type-VII and type-IX drone to fit into non-X racks. A software upgrade to the fire control system then allowed the unit to launch and control the more advanced drone.

{I’m not sure if the type-XIII drone was:
a) incompatible with non-X
b) compatible to keep things simple
c) compatible but took up two spaces in a non-X rack and only 1.5 spaces in an X-rack
Opinions?}

For the plasma races it was only slightly more difficult to improve their plasma-F launchers gaining all of the advantages of the plasma-L. This upgrade made Captains happy but the strategic benefit was felt in the significantly improved performance of the PF and Assault Fighter designs. {The fighters could use some help, even in the era of mega-packs, but would this combined with Sabots, Carronade and ECP unbalance PFs?}

The Hydrans adapted their Fusion Beams to the no cool-down type that their X-ships had been perfecting. The Tholians improved their Snare generators to the two-power design found in their X-ships. The Seltorians were pacified by the ISC in Y186 and then exterminated by the Klingons in Y187.

XP refits {described elsewhere} were incorporated {sometime after Y188 TBD} on new construction ships. Once the idea had proved successful designers turned their attention to update the existing fleet with improved technology without incurring the cost of building and maintaining the notoriously fickle X-engines. {Kenneth Jones suggests limiting the rate at which an XP battery can extract power to one power per turn. This will have to be further explored. Jeremy Gray has suggested all XP ships have two power bats, which would solve many problems in the simplest way.}

Certain late war designs including the HDW, BCH and DNH classes already incorporated advanced technology into their original design limiting what could be done to further improve them. {insert technobabble}

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Mentioned in another topic was the idea of a Lyran Civil War post Andros. Throwing in some curve ball hot-wars during the Trade Wars would keep things interesting.