Curve-balls are always good value.

I think a lot of the X2 period battles will be X2 vessels of the major powers stomping on the GW vessel of independant planets.

And the dynamic between the full sized, six EW, Ph-1/2, low reserve power vessels and the pocket sized, 8 EW, Ph-5, huge reserve using X2s will be a crutial set of dynamics on which to base the battle with neither side having a real advantage dispite the massive differenaces in the vessels.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Tos, asked me to repost this from the C5 Development discussion, for all you to paruse. This is all in regards to the Andro's defeating fixed defenses.

OK, I've considered this whole Andro's attacking Bases+Planets more than others, so that's why I have a unique perspective.

See Jon Cleaves and I wrote the Andromedan Campaign for conquering the LDR. It's in SVC's bucket-o-stuff that he said he might get to after Origins.

That being said, I realize what the problems are attacking fixed installations and planets with Andromedans. SPP tutored me extensively. Sorry for the length of this post (to all of you casual readers and SVC/SPP)

Facts about the Andromedans (this is just a rehash, but I'm including it if anyone's missed the memos or anything.)
A. They don't play fair. Well that's obvious, but they don't follow any other patern of Galactic forces, so anything that the Klingons/Feds have to do. They don't.
B. They think long term, and are NEVER on the 'clock' of the Galactics, except once the RTN starts falling apart. They spent 200 years cruising from Andromeda to the Milky Way, who cares if it takes 30 days more to get something done?
C. The RTN. The RTN is their biggest advantage. Since they can travel along it at high speed and not being detected, they can have whatever ships they want, when they want it, for whatever they want. The RTN is their way of moving everything, and it cannot be intercepted. By the time of the Alpha Quadrant invasion, they have set the RTN all across the F+E board, and they can get anywhere, from anywhere (practically) before they can be intercepted.
D. The Galactics can't force them to do anything they don't want to (except once the RTN starts falling apart). The Andromedans have the initiative ALWAYS. You cannot gain the initiative from someone that moves faster than you, ships are magically repaired faster (every RTN node has whatever repair parts it needs for any ship that's damaged), and ship replacements arrive faster than your does. This will mean that when the Andro's attack, they get to choose whatever they think they need to take the target.

How the Andromedan's defeat you:
1. They wear you down so you cannot fight. Pretty simple huh? The fact that they can move faster on the RTN than any X-ship out their puts them at an advantage always having the numeretical ship advantage in any battle that is significant to THEM.
2. You CANNOT play turtle against them. Lets say you do fortify all of your planets with SB+massive defenses. You realize that you are protecting a meer PLANET, and not the solar system right? Sure you have a SB over Earth, but Mars+Jupiter+Asteroids are ALL Andromedan. You will not be able to build any new ship, since no planet will have all the materials needed to create a new ship by itself. You need commerce for that, and the Andromedans deny you of that. Knowing that, they are fine to isolate Earth, and take over the Federation, because with the RTN they may bring overwhelming firepower to bear on any target, capture it, and then once captured prevent it from being retaken.
3. Sieges. The Andromedan can and will seige you. You can do nothing to stop it, how can you stop the seige if you have no idea where they are getting their supplies from? With all of the stomping across Alliance space, the Coalition always had supply lines vunerable to Alliance Raiders. The Andromedans get their supplies through the RTN, you'd have to destroy ALL of the nodes within range of the target to drive the Andromedans off (if you find them that is). But that is not going to happen, as they can bring reinforcements to defeat your forces before all of the nodes are destroyed.
4. Demoralization. The Andromedans force you do things that you wouldn't want to do. Sure we as gamers know what's going to happen, but story-wise you think logically. Ken's referance for the Baduvai/Eneen abandoning their homeworlds to flee the Andro's is the perfect example, and Kudoz to including it. If you have 30 SC3 ships left (in your Fleet), and you have 500 Million people on that planet "over their", you can't abandon them to the Andro Machine, you have to attempt to protect them. Oops, 2 Dominators show up and smoke the 6 of the 8 you sent to protect them. Now you are down to 24 ships. Oh wait, theirs 228 Million over their, well another 2 Dom's, and 5 more SC3's die. Etc. Sure as gamers we can say 'write them off', but story wise, you couldn't.
5. Suprise factor. You never know what a Dom is carrying. It's cargo could be 24 MWPs or 4 Mambas or any combination in between. Sure we know in SFB that we can take an educated guess, but not 'story-wise', when writing believable history.
6. Intelligence. Because of their long look on everything, assume they know everything. They know the shipping route, know local terrain, know locations of minefields (this will probably be gotten from captured ships though). Assume their has been a Python observing everything in that Asteroid Field for a year.
7. The Galactics/LMC will NEVER have the optimum ships available for the defense. (This goes with #4 above) They will have a mish-mash of left overs at any 'fixed' locations. There will be none of this 'perfect fleets' defending a SB. None of this C10, C7/DX, 3D5W, 3D5, 3F5W/FX, D6D, D6S junk. More like "Oh we have a C7, D6, D5, D5F, F5, FX, 2E4, G4, 2G2, D5S verses 2 DOM, joy."

An example of a Siege:
Lets take the Mag SB for example (since this really applies). This assumes that going by the DisDev governing rule, that the Andro's can go to the RTN, then 'cruise' to the Siege (this is in the C2 notes). 2 Dominator show up (fully loaded), 2 Anaconda's 'cruise' up, and 4 Mambas 'cruise' also (lets say 1 more DOM is off-map if one has to withdraw to repair). They split into 2 groups that begins 'orbiting' the planet+SB at range 22. Their target, not the SB or planet or minefield, only the SC3 ships that are 'inside' the minefield, where they 'think' it is safe.

The DOM's 12 ECCM each. 4 DisDev's each, planning to fire 4 DisDevs each turn (from whichever ship) at any SC3 ship. It hits on 1-3. So a 25% chance of hitting twice. EM will reduce that chance to hit of course, but only after the 1st time will the enemy know what is being done to them. Their plan, displace a ship away/across/thru the minefield. If it hits any mines along the way (their are dumb mines in all minefields) too bad. If not, it is probably going slow enough, that it can't get back through the minefield before the Mamba's+Dominator pounce on it. The target for Displacement can be displaced once every 4! impulses not enough time to do a mid-turn speed change to attempt to get away (getting displaced 4 times in a turn, upto 24 hexes will mean certain death). Once a target is outside the minefield, it will be toast.

What is a SB going to do to help at Range 15+? Not much by itself, you need mobile units to help, but wait, oh gee, you mean I have to send my other ships out to MEET a Dominator (fully loaded with ??, see #5 above) to save my NCL/CL/CA/etc. (This goes with #7 above) Their will be no opportunity to sit behind the minefield and Prox Photon/DERFACs DISR them during the siege orbiting.

So now after 100 (or 1000) turns of this the Andro's finally assault the SB+planet, presumably a majority of any ammo weapons has been used up. SPP has illustrated above (and I added to it) that you assault the planetary bases by flying up from Range 30 to Range 5 (speed 25, need to HET just in case) in on turn while the SB is in the 'blind spot'. So all of it's guns cannot be added to the planet's. If needed the Andro's jump the Minefield, ie Displacing (and gaining the hexes) across it and they take 0 damage from the NSM you paid for. The DOM will displace any threating ships also, possibly into the planet/moon if they are lucky. Those that aren't displaced are TRH bait, as they suffer from rolling on double the range chart when firing into the atmosphere (which will mean at range 5 they roll on the range 10 column verses ground bases, uugghh)

So here you are the planetary gun commander and you have 2 choices (or as lots of people call it, Russian Roulette):
1) Decide that you are going to wait for the mauler your certain he has (#5 above), so you wait until Range 5 shot, the Dominator gets their and beams it's 9 Rattlers/MGPs/MCP down. (MGPs do have 20 BPs, MCPs can carry GCVs). Or it does beam it's Mauler+Cobras out. OK, the Mauler goes boom, the Dominator+Cobras hopefully destroy 2 GB Hvy Weapons.
2) Open up on the Dominator. Absorbing 130 pts of damage is a lot to watch vanish into the PAs, not having the SB around to capitalize on it hurts too. But of course if its carrying a mauler you are losing a LOT of ground bases (dial-a-shot, each time it fires). You need at least 40+ more on the DOM to slow it down enough that the SB might get good 2 volleys with it's weapons on it.

The Dominator HET's then, and leaves, the planet is now down 2 ground bases if hit with weapons, or 3+ if hit with ground troops.

The next Dominator then does his run on the next hexside to be targeted, but will take significantly less damage because of the missing ground bases. And by the way, while this is happening DOM#1 is withdrawing and DOM#3 is coming in to help out.

DOM #2 pulls out, DOM#3 comes in and low and behold 3 sides of the planet are without Ground Bases. Guess what's next to be targeted, the SB with 2 DOMs that come up and park next to the planet and wait for it to come around and vape it.

Now if the planetary defenses were strong enough to threaten to destroy a Dominator, well you might have to send in an Intruder on a suicidal mission to destroy some ground bases to 'weaken' one side for further exploitation by the Dominators.

Now with all of this, the Andromedan's have hopefully lost 0 Dominators. XX Sat Ships (bah, who cares they make those anywhere on any captured planet) Andromedans need to keep their Motherships alive to keep the conquest going. It's cheap to replace Sat Ships.

Mag SB #2 should now fall a little easier, as presumably SB#1 had the better ships.

Mag SB #3, would they even defend it? They've seen their 2 most powerful bases destroyed with no losses to the Andromedans (well significant losses)

Now just how long will be between each of these "Seiges"? A week, 2, a month? Lets use a month as an example. As the defender what can you do? In F+E terms, move your ships a hex? Maybe 2 if it's an X-Ship. Most of your important units will be out of place to react that fast. Bye-Bye planet.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 01:56 am: Edit

A couple of things to remember.

• The node can not be so close to the target planet that the SB sensors or even the sensors of the PF scout will not detect ( when they are on occassion alone ).

• Indeed PFTs alone will from time to time find RTN nodes and not all RTN node will have 2 DOM nor will they be within range of 2 DOMs before the destruction of the node and GSCs are nearly as good at that job.
Once the first scout runs over a RTN node alone ( and gets a subspace message off as to what happened), the races will start deploying lone PFTs and that's something pretty hard to shrug off.

• If the RTN is superfast but not instantainious then there is a chance that an Andro vessel will be forced to either retreat or engaged by a enemy fleet that just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

• If capitals have multiple starbases ( several on the ground, 2 in orbit and some orbiting planets of the capital systems with BATS and ground based Ph-4s on Asteroids or larger objects then the seige will take months breaking through each layer of the defenses around a capital...and Dash speed particularly for X ships is awefully high.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit

To what MJC brought up:

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The node can not be so close to the target planet that the SB sensors or even the sensors of the PF scout will not detect ( when they are on occassion alone ).

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Indeed PFTs alone will from time to time find RTN nodes and not all RTN node will have 2 DOM nor will they be within range of 2 DOMs before the destruction of the node and GSCs are nearly as good at that job.
Once the first scout runs over a RTN node alone ( and gets a subspace message off as to what happened), the races will start deploying lone PFTs and that's something pretty hard to shrug off.

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If the RTN is superfast but not instantainious then there is a chance that an Andro vessel will be forced to either retreat or engaged by a enemy fleet that just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

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If capitals have multiple starbases ( several on the ground, 2 in orbit and some orbiting planets of the capital systems with BATS and ground based Ph-4s on Asteroids or larger objects then the seige will take months breaking through each layer of the defenses around a capital...and Dash speed particularly for X ships is awefully high.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 08:57 am: Edit

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If the node is detected, the Andros can either abandon it, or post a guard that can handle a PFT.

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And if the Andro retreats, how does that help the Galactics?

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If capitals are that well defended, then the Andros should use the same strategy the Americans did in late WW2 against the Japanese: island-hopping. Or, "hit 'em where they ain't"

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 09:03 am: Edit

On the subject of the RTN.

Do Andro vessels in the network travel like freigth on a train or like ships out to sea?

If the RTN requires a highly specific coarse like a load of frieght on a goods-train then out-manouvering ships that have gotten lucky and found the tracks ( or better still a station ) will be much easier to stop than if those same vessels can just change coarse at super high speed and go somewhere else.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:37 am: Edit

I know I missed it somewhere in the archive, but what does this have to do with the X2 Timeline?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

RBN: Tos asked that the above article by Scott Tenhoff be posted here for it's realevance to X1R. For it is X1 and X1R that will be fighting the Andro and so developement of X1R should have these problems in mind.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Ah got it! Now it makes sense.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 09:10 pm: Edit

On the subject of when X2 ships will get built.


My thinking is that the construction of X2 vessels will occour even though the tradewars period limits the budget of the varrious navies.
But the value of the X2 vessels are two great in effect to ignore.

Consider a Federation X1 Squadron with an FFX. Consider what would happen if the Fed FFX were replaced with an XFF.
If the XFF were an FFX with:- An ASIF, S-Bridge, Full X-Aegis, 12 point standard photons, 3 Ph-5s ( with refit room to upgrade to 5 Ph-5s ), 30 sheild boxes all round, 20 warp engine boxes, two more Hull boxes to support it in long duration missions and an extra AWR...how different will it's combat opperations be.

If following the squadron and firing from R12 the FFX will generate an average of 8.33 points of damage but the XFF will squeeze 2.0 points of phaser damage out of each Ph-5 and 8 points of damage out of her proximity photon spread for a total of 14 points of damage ( a 68% increase in damage ) and she has the extra power to arm those heavy standards at fastloading rates and still have the battle speed of the FFX and an extra point of ECCM ( powered not potential ).

In convential single combat using the same battle speed as the FFX and the 24 point Photon restrictions she's going to be attaking with 22 point Photons ( actually 23 if you pump half a point of power from the extra AWR into each Phot-tube ) so instead of inflicting (1/2 x 2 x 16 + 2.166 x 3) for 22.5 from the FFX it will be inflicting 29 points of damage.

Then there is the survivalibilty issues to consider with 6 extra shield boxes on each sheild and a 2+6 ASIF plus two more hull boxes and five more points of power in total with boxes to match.

Sure it'll have some drawbacks too, like a centerlining total of 6 rapid pulsed phaser shots instead of 10 and with only three Ph-5s her teeth will get pulled rather quickly and she'll have a BPV that's markedly higher than the FFX and she'll have less ability to cream ships in a knief fight than the FFX unless 16 point fastloads are allowed.

All in all the Admirals would be nuts not to replace every FFX with XFFs as soon as the design came on line and since the XFF is undoubtedly cheaper than a new CX and probably cheaper than a new DDX, the money to build these ships, one at a time in order for the shipyard workers to keep their skills up, wouldn't be impossible to find...even if it meant selling a few DWs to neutral planets.


So I say in Y205 at least some X2 ships come to pass.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

Well, that was easy...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:24 pm: Edit

I thought it was essay.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:41 am: Edit

I don't understand why you went toallthattrouble tosay what the rules already state very clearly.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Just that some people were asking if the tradewars would set back X2 construction in favour of soly XP refits.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:32 pm: Edit

The answer being, "when has a refit ever impeded new ship construction?"

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Lots of times...did you know that in the last ten years of opperation H.M.A.S. Melbourne cost more to opperate than the rest of the R.A.N. put together.
..... Part of the reason was the constant repairs.

Also the Collins class submarine springs to mind, with the six billion australian dollars being spent to repair them putting the kybosh on further construction for a quite a few years to come.


If the economy of the race in question is weak enough then YES refiting can imped new ship construction.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 02:42 am: Edit

No, I mean in SFB.

I've never seen refits and yard time compete.

But then not all ships magically sprout the refit on the first year it's available either.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 06:53 am: Edit

One would think refits & new construction always compete for $$$...it just becomes one of those wisdom of soloman things as the money becomes less free.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

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Just that some people were asking if the tradewars would set back X2 construction in favour of soly XP refits.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 01:28 pm: Edit

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One would think refits & new construction always compete for $$$...it just becomes one of those wisdom of soloman things as the money becomes less free.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

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If the economy of the race in question is weak enough then YES refiting can imped new ship construction.

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By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

XP is supposed to be a refit, not an overhaul.

That's why, when XP was first created, we went through every improvement that X1 gives to a ship, and said "yes, we can have it in XP" or "no, too big a change to the ship". Improving the engine capacity is one that was axed rather quickly.

IIRC, there are no refits for GW ships after Y175, except for the CC-to-CCH style modifications.

XP is a Y192* refit for GW ships. As such, it should not compete with new construction, as ship repairs and new ship construction are handled in two different shipyards.

* (Or whatever year, the point being, it's the first refit in 15-20 years).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit

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A properly-constructed min/max (minimum expenditure, maximum effect) XP refit would be something that could be done at a battlestation or a minor yard, keeping the big spaces open for X-conversions and new X construction. Thus no competition for yard space.

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Batteries get replaced anyway, and the new X battery will, at some point, become the standard battery, replacing the old one completely. This happens all the time in the military; a new item comes out, gets mass produced, and replaces old ones. So XP upgrades will have some cost, but not a huge amount because those components are already being produced for new construction.

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That's why, when XP was first created, we went through every improvement that X1 gives to a ship, and said "yes, we can have it in XP" or "no, too big a change to the ship". Improving the engine capacity is one that was axed rather quickly.

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As such, it should not compete with new construction, as ship repairs and new ship construction are handled in two different shipyards.

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By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Two related idea: What is XP and when is it introduced.

XP is some form of limited X technology refit to GW ships seems to be the general answer as to what is it. When seems to be undecided.

The other side to XP is what is XP to new construction? Since the ship is under construction its not really a refit. So what X like capabilities would be possible to add to a new ship with XP tech and how and where does new XP ships fit in the X2 timeline. I will post a concept ship in the XP topic.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:18 am: Edit

The point of XP is to improve existing ships, not improve new construction. For that, build an X1 ship, or at least, put the new construction ship in X1R - varients of X-ships.