Archive through August 17, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: Major X2 tech changes...: Archive through August 17, 2004
By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:52 am: Edit

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A 48 Warp ships isn't all that fantastic...I know I've playtested it once and saw it go down to a CX & DDX and that XCA had 12Ph-5s!
Once you start paying for 1.5 per Phaser ( which gives you as many free shots as the CX had from your XCA's 3 point caps ) and arm your 24 point Photons ( which are 50% more energy consuming than 16 point Photons ) and you start having trouble making X1 battle speeds and that's before you start paying for an ASIF or S-bridge.
Sure at WS-III your first turn battle speed might be up a bit but it doesn't stay that way for long.



I think you'll find that you are in the minority if you really think a SC3, move cost 1 ship with 48 warp isn't fantastic. So you lost to a force of x-ships with a combined BPV of over 400. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

You are also assuming that the uber-photon is going to come to pass. I won't get into the relative merits (or lack thereof) of that particular proposal again; I'll just reiterate that such ships lead down a path toward munchkinism that most people seem unwilling to follow.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:47 am: Edit

One of the problems for the CX is that she's short on power...sounds strange, but she's short on power with respect to what she can do. The XCA's extra few points can remeediate the problem to some degree although the newer functions of the XCA begin to hold back the XCA as well.

Consider arming Photons as balanced arming weapons or fastloads to the highest rate and generating full overloaded fastloads and opperating the HK with a possible S-Bridge whilst generating maxium EW on the following set of hulls.
Consider the Fed XCA as a CX with 24 point overloads ( and the 16F as the XCA with fastloaded overloads ( 16 point fastloads on four phot-tubes will cost 32 points of energy and inflict 32 points of damage at R8 and 64 at R0 whilst 6 Overloaded Disruptors with builtin UIM will inflict 30 points of damage at R8 and 60 at R0 and cost a mere 24 points of power ), 48 warp engine boxes, an extra two Scaucer warp an ASIF which will run on low power for 5 points of power and an S-Bridge.
Fed CARa+ BCG CX XCA 16F
Total Power 36 41 48 58 58
H.K. 4 4 4 5 5
ASIF 0 0 0 5 5
EW 6 6 8 8 8
Photons 16 16 24 24 32
Battle Speed 10 15 12 16 8

Net result the XCA's extra handful of warp engine boxes won't increase the battle speed of these vessels unless the players choose to forgo some of the abilitites of the vessels and that is as it should be.


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The first option (hull protection only) is that ships are still vulnerable getting their weapons stripped off.


My opinion to that is...if you want your ship to survive; power up the ASIF,...if you want your weapons to survive put the power into actual sheilds.


Quote:

I think you'll find that you are in the minority if you really think a SC3, move cost 1 ship with 48 warp isn't fantastic. So you lost to a force of x-ships with a combined BPV of over 400. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?


It's not fantastic...awfully good yes, fantastic no.
And I was flying the CX.


Quote:

You are also assuming that the uber-photon is going to come to pass. I won't get into the relative merits (or lack thereof) of that particular proposal again; I'll just reiterate that such ships lead down a path toward munchkinism that most people seem unwilling to follow.


I'm not one upgrading the engine of the X2 but I can see the Four Disruptor Klingon XD7 ( or should that be the XD6 ) moving pretty quickly, but then any ship can move pretty quickly...how fast will a Fed BCG go if she chooses to arm just three standards and leaves EW for her BTTYs if she needs it!?!...31.
The same is true of X2 ships, if they don't go looking for overloads high end EW or funky new systems then yes they'll move like the wind but they've paid a hell of a lot for those abilitites in BPV so they'ld better make moving quickly work.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit

What are the ideas for special sensors for X2? The special bridge has some scout abilities.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:59 am: Edit

I've had the impression that X1 engines are like adding an after burner. Effective but inefficient. X2 ships would have an output similar to an X1 engine, but would operate more efficiently/affordably. Like the DN the X1 ship would be too expensive to operate during times of peace.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:36 am: Edit

I agree with your assessment on the engines; X2 engines would be, IMHO, a better and more durable engine with the capabilities of hot warp. Same strategic speed, more output, but without being such a stress to the ship. Not sure about X1 being too expensive to operate in peace time; hadn't thought about it much to be honest. Depends on overall fleet size and disposition.

MJC,

Part of your problem with your speed analysis is that you aren't doing it in a balanced way. You have the non-CX ships all loading normal photons, and the X ships loading fast loads. Take the same analysis and compensate by loading normal photons, like you did with the others, and you find the CX with a battle speed of 20...more than enough. Ditto the XCA. Fastloading should penalize the ship and slow it dramatically...it's a trade off.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:51 pm: Edit

We all decided that Special Sensor would remain the same realative to X2 but would have similar advantage over earlier generations like X1 does.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 01:24 pm: Edit

And the special bridge would incorporate some of the features of special sensors, without being a full sensor. Check any of the SSDs on Vorlon's page for a list of features.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit

deleted duplicate

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Were any ideas suggested on what improvements X2 special sensors would have or be able to do?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:21 pm: Edit

No, they do so much already anything new would be too much. Unless there is some new weapon that need to be adressed by Scout Sensors.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Have you considered: (limited to true scout ships)

passive mode; uses 1/2 point of power does a scout function at a reduced range with out the vessel being detected as a scout.

Longer range for certain fuctions. Would take 1.5 points of power.

Automatic detection of drone types, dummy mines and pseudo plasma at close range (under 5 hexes or some lesser range)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Automatic detection...dummy mines and pseudo plasma...

That would break those systems. Especially for PPT's which, by their nature get to close range.

Most of the above adds great powers to an already powerful system. Already if you have two scouts in a fleet you must pay a 100 point BPV penalty. That goes to show just how powerful they are.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Okay for the automatic detection. I am not sure I follow you on passive and longer range for X2 ships?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Longer ranged might not be so very bad but I not sure what the passive thing is actually.

I can tell you that Scout Sensors stand out quite a lot electronically and physically. At some point everyone is going to be able to tell. I'm also not sure why its so important to hide your scout. It's usually the one in the back that will eventually be putting all sorts of ECM.

Other wise if Tach Intel has not shown the ship to be a scout it can use it normal ship EW (i.e. not its special sensors) until it goes to work for the fleet.

I'm not sure if I can see a value in passive that is worth the effort of a rule.

Don't let me stop you from exploring ideas or even these ideas. I'm just pointing out what ONE man thinks.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Jrc: I don't think you can ``passively'' do things like lending, breaking lockons, etc. Tac-Intel's about the only thing that seems a likely candidate, and any scout can do it ``passively'' by not using a SENS at all and using the Ship column.

Now, allowing longer range is an interesting idea. Maybe there could be a Long Range Mode. I would make it double power to activate the SENS. Maybe increase range to 20-25 for lending, breaking lockons, etc. Use double the `Ship' column range for Tac-Intel.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

The point with power level is the strength of the EM emission. Example active vs passive sonar. A ship using passive sonar has to be detected and for a sub that is at a close range relative to active sonar.

Applying this to SFB: The passive mode would allow a scout to detect other active sensors and active aegis FC at a greater tact-intel range without disclosing it was a scout. Another application; There was a proposal for a SFB drone version of a HARM. If the sensors are active the ship (not the sensor)could be targeted at longer range.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Jrc: I'm familiar with active vs. passive sensors. That's why I don't think you can use most scout functions passively: you have to be throwing energy at things to do them.

For tac-intel you're suggesting, then, that if a scout had a ``passively'' powered channel dedicated to tac-intel, it could detect aegis etc. at, say, D instead of E? Without a fully-powered channel, of course, the scout would be using the Ship column... It doesn't seem like a very big gain to justify special rules.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Quote:

Part of your problem with your speed analysis is that you aren't doing it in a balanced way. You have the non-CX ships all loading normal photons, and the X ships loading fast loads. Take the same analysis and compensate by loading normal photons, like you did with the others, and you find the CX with a battle speed of 20...more than enough. Ditto the XCA. Fastloading should penalize the ship and slow it dramatically...it's a trade off.


Actually the first XCA collum was loading 24 pointers.
A CX will move fast if she builds up 16 pointers on purposes, but then she's hurling photons with little better capasity than the BCG or the CARa+ if she does.
It's a trade off, you pay for a bunch of abilitites with BPV and then you only have the power to do some of them at a time...the XCA with 48 warp engines is a powerful, powerful ship but not a magic carpet ride.


Quote:

We all decided that Special Sensor would remain the same realative to X2 but would have similar advantage over earlier generations like X1 does.


Really when did that happen???

You know I was thnking about the EW loaning rules and thought to myself, what if we could use the scout channel to engage in EW borrowing?

He's my idea.
Any X2 scout that is loaning ECCM to a ship within a squadron may also use one scout channel to gain data from a freindly vessel ( within range ) such that using that once scout channel with that ship will all half the ECCM generated (rounded down ) by that ship to be added loaned ECCM. And upto two vessels may have their ECCM "borrowed" to aid the one. A scout can not borrow more ECCM to add to the lending than the number of points of ECCM it is itself lending. A scout channel only needs to be active and focused on a friendly ship to borrow ECCM can can not perform another function while doing so.
Basically the scout uses the sensor data from itself and two other vessels to ship receiving the ECCM and thus enemy ECM is much less able to protect the enemy vessel(s).

The total power cost would be maximum of a three scout channels plus the 6 ECCM loaning, with the two "borrowed" ships also putting power into 6 ECCM.


I'm not sure if a bunch of ships being loaned ECCM could gain from the borrowed ECCM ( one per availible scout channel and each being loaned ECCM equal to or more than the ammount being borrowed ) or if that would be too powerful and the number should therefore be limited to one.

I don't think X2 will have a bigger ECCM shift than -1 so having huge amounts of ECCM being leant to a ship won't create autohitting R8 photons but it will be a new special sensor that can allow a ship to make getting that minus one very probable...we would have to raise the lending limit for tis purposes or else it would just become a "de factoe" power saving system on the scout.


Quote:

Now, allowing longer range is an interesting idea. Maybe there could be a Long Range Mode. I would make it double power to activate the SENS. Maybe increase range to 20-25 for lending, breaking lockons, etc. Use double the `Ship' column range for Tac-Intel.


Actually there is one scout function I could see for half a point of power...attracting drones and seeking shuttles ( and presumably Deathraiders ). If you want to become drone bait and you don't have the power to opperate a full scount channel, who am I to say no!?!

It'ld make a lollypop Fed XSC into a very uncomfortable ship...

Science Officer 1; "Captain we've only got enough power to attack all 8 of those type VIII drones".

Science Officer 2; "Surely powering four scout channels to full power would let us have 12 attempt to knock down the drones and that'll kill all 8 of `em".

Science Officer 1; "No, it's too risky we might not kill them all!"

Science Officer 2; "And turning the ship into a giant wild weasel isn't!?!"


As to othe longer range idea, I would say it should be restricted to all the functions that can be performed just by paying power to the special sensor, thus you can't loan ECM to R25 but you can knockdown drones. I also would go with double the power to opperate although if only out to R20 I might go with 1.5 points to stop confusion about where that is a sensor that is able to run at long range or a sensor that can loan a point of ECM.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

I guess whatever gets through will have to deal with the XSC's AEGIS defenses (Ph-6 pulses and AADDs).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Oops...

"Captain we've only got enough power to attract all 8 of those type VIII drones".


I have a hunch attract drones and then weasel them off is a term paper written by someone ( I think CL 23 )...something about "handing off to the linebacker" or somesuch.
Doing it for less power would just be icing on the cake.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Loren and Thanasis,

Look at (D20.23) ranges for detecting hidden units. A hidden unit SC1-4 is detected at range 3 or range 6 by an active channel set to 24-27. Allow detection by a X2 channel in the passive mode at the same range. This would be handled through a Sensor and Sytems Integration center (SIM) box.

Turning off a sensor results in the energy being spent. A X2 channel switched off would not count the power spent under per (G24.33)under (D22.0) but stored in the batteries in capacity is available.
The SIM box would handle the power transfer. The SIM would also have limits to 2 or 3 points of power.

Tac-Intel:
Passive mode to level J
Active mode shift down two levels.

Range active mode:
Lending; single unit 25 or 2 units 12.
Offesive EW; 20.
Gathering information; 20.

These are just some ideas. The main point is through advanced senors and power management the senors perform better.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:47 am: Edit

Jrc: You write, A X2 channel switched off would not count the power spent under per (G24.33)under (D22.0) but stored in the batteries in capacity is available. I'm really not sure I follow what you mean here.

As far as tac-intel goes, you mention level J -- at what range? What's magical about J?

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:15 am: Edit

Thanasis,

If I understand the rule correctly, if you cease operation of a sensor the power is lost (spent). I am proposing the power is put into a battery (or warp cap).

Hidden unit detection is at range 3, I am proposing range 6 for passive mode. (D17.4) specifies levels of information and ranges different classes of ship can detect this information. I am preparing a proposal that I may post latter.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:49 am: Edit

Thats smacks of Andro tech. Just say no.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 11:06 am: Edit

Quote:

Actually the first XCA collum was loading 24 pointers.
A CX will move fast if she builds up 16 pointers on purposes, but then she's hurling photons with little better capasity than the BCG or the CARa+ if she does.



First, if the example shows an XCA overloading 24 pointers then it sure as hell ought to be going slow. Further, I disagree about the CX not having any more affect with his 16 point photons than a BC. You are forgetting that nifty +1 shift the CX gets, and with that excess power it has from not fastloading, it can play very nice EW games. It will, in short, hit more often from farther away with those photons. It is not the same as a BC.

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It's a trade off, you pay for a bunch of abilitites with BPV and then you only have the power to do some of them at a time...the XCA with 48 warp engines is a powerful, powerful ship but not a magic carpet ride.



Any ship that can arm standard photons AND put up max EW AND still zoom along at top speed qualifies as a magic carpet ride in my book. With 48 points of warp plus a pair of AWR, you can do that, even with your proposed uber-photons.

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