MJC: But in this case it's not new. You and I and a bunch of others worked this out pretty well and all generally agreed. Agreement in this case is a matter you were part of the group that established that.

I believe I spoke for a good many people on that subject here. Unless I've gon senile!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 12:11 am: Edit

MJC;

The mechlinks in PFTs are different. They include a mechanical linkage (hence the name) rather than just a pure tractor. That mechanical linkage is why they can carry PFs at high warp speeds.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 08:06 am: Edit

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Why won't I just let this go because you're tired of debating whether XP refits require XEP!?!

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 09:21 am: Edit

Fine I will...

Even if there is enough people to install the X-tech parts on the GW ships there's no saying that the factories have an over abundant rate of production of the X-tach parts...therefore XP will probably be late because the warehouses ( and logisitics systems in general ) that hold said spares will get filled long before the XP refit becomes considered...on the off chance that said spares will suddenly be needed.

Low rate of construction of parts + High rate of construction of ships + High rate of consumption of parts => Late introduction of XP.

It's a simple formula.

I'm not saying an XP refit is not possible, I'm not saying it should never come to pass. I'm saying it will come to pass when the skills and technology becomes reasonably common place such that it will be in the late X1 period or the X2 period.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 09:29 am: Edit

S.V.C.:

Would you like to help us with a little disagreement we have?

Which would you say was more correct for your vision of the XP refit:-

A) The XP refit began almost (read; post R&D) as soon as the idea of an XP refit popped into the heads of the Admirals, say in Y187.

B) The XP refit was so dependant on critially rare skills, equipment and parts that it didn't occour until the X2 period or at least the very late X1 period, say Y199 or more probably Y209.

C) Don't bug me with this kind of thing, just make your best arguements & reasoning and I'll make my mind up when the time comes.

By Todd Warnken (Toddw) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 09:51 am: Edit

Let me see if I understand the arguement. Everyone wants XP in some form; all the shouting is about the year XP becomes available. I'll leave it to Steve and Steve to make that call and write the background to justify it. Personally I would like to see XP happen during the Andromedan Invasion (Y192 or so). It would be one of the reasons we were able to stop the Andros and eventually win the war.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 10:22 am: Edit

No. That isn't the argument. The argument is whether or not XP refits are so intensive that they delay or interfere with new ship construction. Most say "no"...a refit does not do that, for a variety of reasons (the most obvious being that you don't tie up resources refitting old ships when you can be building new ones). As for when? I don't really care. Anytime after Op Unity should be okay.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

As far a X-tech parts go, you can buy as many as you can afford really. There is an upper limit in 180, but by 190 they tech should be relatively prolific.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

I don't know what an XP refit is, but assuming it's a partial X-refit, you could argue that it was concurrent with new X-ship production, or you could argue that it was after the war. It wasn't part of the original vision so i'd have to think through how I'm going to integrate it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit

SVC,

You have the basic premise of the idea.

Question we've debated are the amount of X-tech introduced onto a standard-tech ship, what that tech is.

As well as when XP starts to appear.

A lot of us think "refit" for the amount of X-tech used. The idea is a limited addition of X-tech that spices up standard-tech ships (and keeps them somewhat competetive in an increasingly X-ship world) but comes nowhere near a true X-conversion.

Ideally, hulls that cannot take an X-conversion should be able to take an XP refit.

It's a minimum econ cost/max effect sort of thing.

Like most points of discussion, this general view of XP is not unanimous.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 04:09 pm: Edit

The debate seems to be whether "extra X-stuff beyond that needed for new hulls" appears at the X-date, a year or two before the X-date, or a half-decade after the X-date. Right? If THAT is the question, then I think it is possible to resolve it.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Pretty much, and also exactly what that "extra" X-stuff will be.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Since we've come to a consnensus that XP does not warrant it's own R-module, I figure anything more than a refit would compete with space in the SSD book for new X1 varients in Module X1R.

MJC said:

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I'm not saying an XP refit is not possible, I'm not saying it should never come to pass. I'm saying it will come to pass when the skills and technology becomes reasonably common place such that it will be in the late X1 period or the X2 period.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 09:21 pm: Edit

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As far a X-tech parts go, you can buy as many as you can afford really. There is an upper limit in 180, but by 190 they tech should be relatively prolific.

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What if the restriction that an X1 ship needs an outstanding crew gets lifted a few years after X1 is introduced?

At that point, the XP refit becomes available for all GW ships and becomes the standard for all new construction (except specially built full X1 or X2 ships).

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

MJC, I am looking at this from a game POV. Federation and empire lets you buy as many as you can afford.

With replicators, as many as you can afford seems to be the only limiting factor.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 09:51 pm: Edit

or perhaps that should read very high security clearance workers
Well with X tech in the hands of the Orions I think that premise is alreasy dead.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

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(XG21.0) CREW QUALITY: X-Ships never have poor or oustanding crews, and the crew quality rules do not apply X-ships in any way. The technology is highly automated and the crew highly trained; these rules already reflect the maximum benefits of both.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Which is why a while back ( two days or one ??) I used the phrase awfully good crews.


CEF:

There has to be some kind of limit on X technology items or otherwise you wouldn't need XEPs to buy X ships, you could just use EP to buy them.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Have we all been reading this wrong the whole time?

From Advanced Missions:

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[XG21.0] X-ships never have poor or outstanding crews and the crew quality rules do not apply to X-ships in any way. In truth, all crew beings assigned to X-ships will be former menbers of outstanding crews with impeccable credentials, but the technology is too new for them to be familiar with it and they will not retain their outstanding status per se, but will be absorbed by the ship's status.

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[XG21.0] X-ships never have poor or outstanding crews, and the crew quality rules do not apply to X-ships in any way. The technology is highly automated and the crew highly trained; these rules already reflect the maximum benefits of both.

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By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 01:03 am: Edit

Being a space lawyer is the only way to get ahead in this game.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 02:02 am: Edit

Some people call me Space Cowboy...

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 03:57 am: Edit

From the stuff I'm working on:

(R2.RBN.X2) THE STATE OF THE STAR FLEET (Y205-215)
The Federation emerged from the near-catastrophic galactic wars with a lot of infrastructure (including Star Fleet) to rebuild. Cost savings and flexibility became paramount in designing the "new fleet." At the same time the Admiralty refused to sacrifice combat power in the event of a follow-on invasion or outbreak of war. After all, Star Fleet is a military organization with combat starships.
In Y205 the existing Fleet deployed a strictly defensive posture within Federation space while diplomats negotiated new treaties. Dreadnoughts (those that weren't marooned over Organia) and battle cruisers were strategically located to stand in place of destroyed starbases and battle stations and often operated with National Guard units. What was left of Star Fleet's carrier force was divided among the numbered fleets, to supplement fleet actions when needed, and performed a lot of anti-piracy missions. X-Ships took on flagship duties and formed "flying squadrons" with the remains of the wartime Fleet for surge operations during the reconstruction and stabilization period, as well as responding to crises during the so-called Trade Wars. The new second-generation X-Ships did not exist in sufficient numbers to take part in early post-war actions, but they did take on long-range expeditions and respond to crises. They always seemed to be "riding to the rescue" at the last second. By Y210 they were able to take on greater roles and as of Y215 the X2 force became the mainstay of Star Fleet. This allowed Star Fleet to phase out the older wartime fleet. If a ship didn’t have X-technology it was mothballed, turned over the National Guard, or scrapped.

(X0.RBN.2) SECOND-GENERATION ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
In Y200 Star Fleet began its "Keel Up" review to determine how to complete the research & development of its "adolescent" X-Technology (hastily put to wartime use in first generation X-Ships). Much of the underlying technology was ready but application was not yet defined. By Y203 Operation Unity appeared to be on the road to success and the Federation ruled out developing technology for strictly war-class ships. The Federation decided to build a family of starships that maximized combat power within a given hull as well as close-in defense and internal survivability. The resulting "super" starships proved very potent in combat and capable of supporting the Federation's goals in long-range expeditions and reconstruction and stabilization.
The new advanced warp engines take starships further into space and have new tactical applications as well. Operationally their power curve can sharply spike for unheard-of reaction dashes and then level out for long-endurance cruising at high speeds. The new phasers are deadlier than earlier phasers and the new photon torpedo is more flexible. Advances in drone technology resulted in a powerful new drone rack and close-in defenses. Survivability and defense is vastly improved through shield improvements, advanced electronic warfare, damage-shunting technologies, and enhanced structural integrity. Mission flexibility is possible through the use of X-Ship option bays wherein various non-weapon systems can be swapped out. Initially the Fleet could only swap these spaces out in spacedock but new Fleet Tenders (XAT) became available around Y210, providing an underway option-swap capability.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 04:09 am: Edit

Here's some R-section descriptions (these would be Y205-ish):

(R2.RBN.XCA) FEDERATION SECOND-GENERATION ADVANCED HEAVY CRUISER (XCA)
In the post-war era heavy cruisers remain the obvious choice for long range patrol and endurance operations. Since dreadnoughts became prohibitively expensive heavy cruisers assumed battle group command and power projection. The XCA performs these roles with room to spare. While the CX retains the flagship role, the XCA assumes the lion's share of frontier and beyond-frontier expeditions. The XCA's X-Ship Option Bays enhance long-range operations. While XCA's offensive potency may not meet that of the CX, its long-haul endurance and defensive and survival capabilities out-strip the CX.
Star Fleet is developing Fleet Carrier (XCV) and Galactic Survey Cruiser (XGSC) variants.

(R2.RBN.XDD) FEDERATION SECOND-GENERATION ADVANCED DESTROYER (XDD)
The new destroyers will replace the Fleet's war-worn light cruisers and most of the wartime destroyers. The DDX will be limited to homeland operations where the XDD will be made available to supplement heavy cruisers for frontier and beyond-frontier expeditions. The XDD will supplement the DDX in providing the bulk of "homeland defense" as well as forming the "gun line" in battle groups. The XDD's hull is based on a modified XCA primary hull and indeed some have argued the XDD is a small XCL. Ultimately its space-trial performance classed it a destroyer. The XDD has limited operational flexibility with its smaller number of X-Ship Option Bays, but this further enables it to replace the light cruiser force.
Star Fleet is developing an AEGIS Destroyer (XDDA) variant.

(R2.RBN.XFF) FEDERATION SECOND-GENERATION ADVANCED FAST FRIGATE (XFF)
Star Fleet carefully re-examined the role and design of its frigates after suffering massive wartime losses. The frigate is a vital fleet component in that its small hull and reduced manning requirements make it a very economical asset in "day-to-day" fleet operations. Star Fleet decided to sustain a composite-cohort paradigm allowing the new frigates to complement each other in squadron actions and to provide tailor-made frigates for escort and other security duties. The typical frigate deployment will see two frigates operating together and can ramp up to four to six-frigate squadrons (FRIGRONs).
Frigate hulls are packed with mission-essential systems for their specific design. They do not carry the typical variety of systems common to Star Fleet hulls. This allows maximization of the hull's capabilities. New frigate captains are calling their ships "fighter starships" because they are so maneuverable and very combat oriented. Star Fleet also intends frigates to be the "breeding ground" for new starship commanders.
Variants to the fast frigate include the attack frigate (XFB), electronic warfare frigate (XFS), mine warfare frigate (XFM), and armed transport (XFT). Planned future variants are the AEGIS Frigate (XFA) and the smaller Patrol Corvette (XK).

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 04:31 am: Edit

I posted links for my XCA under the "Integrated Proposals" thread.

By Jay K Gustafson (Jay) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit

How about a war between Romulans and Klingons.