I'd like to see all races not develop an identical upgrade path. The idea that the Tholians were able to develop X2 tech rubs me the wrong way. As an alternative I suggested that the Tholians never developed X2 (other then the web caster which I consider X2 level tech). If X2 is impossible for the Tholians then the Tholians, to be competitive, need to accomplish something the other races could not. The infamous DX could be exactly that.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:46 am: Edit

Alan,

I agree about the DPW...but I didn't specify that. I said the D was nothing more than a BCH. So, building an X2 ship like the D, but with some differences, would have a BC feel to it. Too big, still, so it hardly matters.

I posted that DX in response to Tos' suggestion, and I think it's worth looking into, especially if you can give them some X1 stuff others don't get, like the DX, and an X-version of the particle cannon. Something new is absolutely required; I cannot conceive of them being left out of a major new module like X2. But I don't disagree that perhaps more X1 ships and some new goodies would work fine for the Tholians in lieu of true X2 stuff.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

Tos: Umm... Why? What exactly is wrong with the Tholians having X2 tech?

Personaly I think it's rather silly to say "Well the Tholians don't get X2 stuff because I don't like it".

And the normal web caster is NOT X2 tech no matter what you consider.

Alan:

Size class 2 does NOT automaticly make a BCH into a dreadnought. The Seltorian and Jindarian come to mind as two other races who's BCH is SC2.

The D hull is a BCH. The DH is the Dreadnought.

All the refits do is make it into one of the best in it's catagory. It also happens to be one of the expensive in it's catagory.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Tos;

You've expressed that before. I've just never understood why you don't think the Tholians should get X2 tech. Unlike, say, the Orions, the Tholians do have their own unique R&D capabilities. (Their are hints about Federation assistance, but that could hardly account for the increases in web efficiency in Y160 and Y175, or the ability to modify generators into snares, or the improvements in the web casters and snares at X1 level. It also seems unlikely that the Tholians were heavily dependent on Federation technical expertise when they developed PFs.)

Clearly the Tholians have at least some inherent R&D capability. And while they have fewer resources to devote to that effort than other races, they can also perhaps draw on some technology concepts that survived from the Tholian Home Galaxy. Note that the Neo-Tholian ships are described in Module C2 as being centuries-old designs (which doesn't mean the individual ships were that old, as Daniel Knudtson Thompson has pointed out). So the technology in the Neo-Tholian ships as they arrived in this galaxy in Y178 probably represented the state-of-the-art of Tholian military technology in the Home Galaxy, but fell well short of state-of-the-art in Home Galaxy technology generally. This gives them a "head start" to compensate for them not having the resources that major races would.

Just as a "Robinson Crusoe" who finds himself isolated in primitive conditions might borrow from his memories and produce relatively advanced items in much less time that it would take to develope them without pre-existing knowledge, so might the Tholians borrow from memories of what was possible in the Home Galaxy, and adapt that capability to warships even if the capability was never used that way in the Home Galaxy.

The Tholians being able to field X2 ships doesn't seem implausible to me. But they would be limited in number and size.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Daniel;

I agree that there are SC2 BCHs. But as I understand it, SVC's prohibition is on SC2 X-ships, period. (The Jindarians are the only exception, but I understand thay will probably be reworked anyway and no one knows what they will ultimately look like.) I don't think the DPW is simply the best in its class. I think it's better than that. It's the only member of a unique class that falls between BCHs and Dreadnoughts. (The Romulan KillerHawk and ISC Flagship Cruiser might also be said to be in unique classes. But the operating characteristics of the 3 ships are sufficiently different that it's harder to compare them it is to compare different races' BCHs or DNs. That, however, is an argument for another day.)

Mike;

One reason I would like to see a Tholian X2 ship is your phaser-x array idea. If there's any race that has a rationale for developing extremely advanced phaser technology, it's the Tholians.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Hmmm. Let me try to explain Tos's opinion, at least as I understand it. I won't presume to state categorically that I have this right, but I think I do. If I'm wrong, he'll no doubt correct me.

I think Tos wants to see the Tholians persue more X1 capabilities rather than focus on X2 because much of what they can do is already way ahead of everyone else. The web caster, while not technically X2 (on this I gotta agree with Alan; it isn't X2 tech), is still one of the best systems in the game. Being able to toss up a web like that is a huge advantage. Now, this technology comes from the remnants of the 312th, and at a time when the Tholians themselves have been beaten bloody. CapLog 17 actually mentions that when the 312th arrived, the Tholians had been beaten back to their home sector, and that their homeworld had been devestated.

In short, they are in horrible shape. Would they have the resources to persue X2 technology? They did get (IIRC) some help with X1 from the Federation, but that was during a time when it benefited the Feds to give them that help. X2 is during the trade wars, and I can't see anyone giving them any help of any kind, even if they'd accept it. If they instead chose to put what resources they have into building bigger X1 hulls (like the DX) and re-creating original technology (like Particle Cannons), they may not have the time or ability to create X2 technology. And, with the new X1 hulls and PC's, they might not even need it.

The rub is that there are certain aspects of X2 that, as they stand right now, would be of huge interest to the Tholians. The biggest would be phasers. A bigger, better phaser is just what they'd love to have. The only reason they wouldn't pull out all the stops to get it that I can think of would be an incompatibility with webs. That is, if the X2 phaser (whatever it is) won't shoot through webs, they'd have no interest in it at all.

So, I can see what Tos is driving at (I think). The Tholians are in no condition to develop a whole new level of technology...but they do have some new resources to play with, thanks to the Seltorians and their own 312th survivors. A fleet comprised of newer, better X1 ships led by DX's might be all they need, and indeed all they can manage to research and develop. Where other races are working on developing new stuff, the Tholians work on rediscovering lost technology instead (lost technology that, according to ADB, was 2X when it was at its height). And, if that puts them on par with X2, then balance will be maintained and they'll get a much different flavor than the others.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Two thoughts:

1) X2 is not X1 so the SC2 ban may not apply. I think we should stay away from it as much as possible but not assume the ban extents there. The things that made X2 possible might be the very things that make SC2 X2 ships possible. X2 is that undefined still.

SVC has metioned what applies to X1 and GW might not be the case or it may; He doesn't know.

2) I see all races getting X2 simply because I see it as the original goal of X-Tech. That is X1 was an early implementation of a new branch of technology which is the bulk of X2. Indeed X3 might be the final implementation but the history ends before that so there is no need to go beyond X2. So since the Tholians have X1 work would most certainly progress to their version of X2 (which should be to implement new versions of their own technologies). Also at this point they are observing and relating to the other races more than they ever had before; actually fighing side by side as allies with other races for their mutual survival against the Andros. Something, I'd point out, no Tholian had EVER done before.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:41 pm: Edit

I groan whenever everyone implements the same tech in the same year. Whenever possible I look for opportunities to differentiate the races.

To me X2 tech is not simply strapping an improved weapon onto the same old hull, it is a brand new hull made of new materials in an enhanced shape. This new way of building more structurally rigid slip-stream sleeker hulls allows us to gain the previously mutually exclusive realm of faster and stronger. The P5 can never exist on a non-X2 hull because that hull lacks the rigidity necessary to properly control the nanometer aim of the P5. The SIF can never exist on a non-X2 hull for much the same reason. X2 achieves its faster speed not by burning engines like the Orions do but instead optimizes its hull shape to have less sub-space drag. X2 is all about the hull.

The Tholians lack the tools to adapt their hulls to take advantage of this improved technology. The Tholians have massive forges that stamp out PC class hulls, and only PC class hulls. These forges are simply beyond the technological understanding of the Tholians and breaking one in an attempt to modify it would be a death sentence.

Alternatively the Tholian hulls are already X2 tech and as such cannot be improved upon. It is clear that others do not prescribe to this belief, but consider: if the hulls are already X2 tech then unlike the rest of the verse the entire X1 Tholian fleet can upgrade to limited X2 tech immediately.

All I really care about is that the Tholians do not follow the same tech curve in the same way as every other race. They are different and should remain so.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

The rear hull is similar to the traditional Federation design. The center engine is parallel to the rear hull and slightly above or maybe level with the saucer. The engine support rises vertically from the rear hull, maybe angled a bit toward the rear. The front engines hang below the saucer and extend toward the rear. That’s how I envisioned it anyway, but there are alternatives.

Alternative 1, picture a USS Reliant http://members.tripod.com/sewills/uss_reliant.htm with the aft hull representing more of a wing then an auxiliary hull. Given the size (10 boxes) of my aft hull it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assuming it could be represented as a wing. Now attach the third warp to the center of the wing. The reliant has a structure at the center of the wing, presumably for ship systems or weapons. It also has a pair of smaller spike structures where the vertical and horizontal sections of the wing meet. It is these spike shaped sections that could hold things like the phasers and control systems found on the aft hull of the SSD if the center warp was attached directly to the wing.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Tos;

I agree that the Tholians are different and should remain so. That is in fact one of the reasons I would like to see them use the phaser-X instead of the phaser-5. It takes them along a different path, and one that makes sense for the Tholians, because they, if anyone, would want to maximize phaser capability over other (non-web caster) weaponry. One possibility for the Tholians at X2 would be that most of their X2 ships are phaser boats, supported by a few web caster ships when operating away from bases.

If that's too radical, then how about if the Tholians get phaser-X but no upgrades to their heavy weapons (except perhaps the web caster)? Other races get phaser-5 and X2-level heavy weapons. The Tholians concentrated their weapon R&D on upgrading phasers and web casters because of the web/phaser interactions. But their disruptors/photons are all still at X1 level.

And I would just as soon not see the Tholians get an MC1 X2 hull. But I'm not convinced that the Tholians can't eventually understand how the forges work, after the Neo-Tholians have shown up. There were lots of things the originally arriving refuge Tholians couldn't do but acquired the capability to do, post-Neo. (I'm talking here about finding ways to improve the capabilities of PC-based hulls, including perhaps the ability to use different material in their construction.

In short, I don't want to see the Tholian X2 ships be just like everyone elses, either. (for that matter, I would prefer that a Kzinti X2 ship not be the same as a Klingon X2 ship except with more drone capability but fewer disruptors.) But I do want to see them get X2 technology.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Tholians did actually come up with a larger PC hull in way of the DW mod. So they have options using their main forge.

They could go for the triple X-mas tree form.

They could use two DW in a CA style fit.

Why these designes and other races X2 designs can work is because of the ASIF. This adds rigidity to the hull under stressful situations.

Some things are naturally going to be so similar that they are the same in game terms. And one technology is going to naturally lead to another. The Phaser-5 is a natural progression from the Phaser-1/XPH-1, as is the Ph-6 from the Ph-3. Cleaner burning warp engines are a natural and I'm cool with staying with 3 point batteries (we can just say they are safer and smaller but function the same and so add one or two to each hull class). Shields are also a natural progression in stopping more damage. Repair naturally becomes more efficient as ships are designed and built with repair more on the forefront of the designers minds. The Special bridge comes from a greater need for the capabilities given the general increase in speed of all ships (earlier detection is a must these days).

These are all things that all races will face. As much as these races interact the more it is reasonable that the basics of their technologies will paralell each other. If they were separated more then they should develope separately for sure. But they observe each other so much and so well that advances in a general science are going to spead eavery where very quickly.

X2 come on the heels of the greatest intermixing of fleets ever in history. I don't see any logical way there won't be co-mingling of basic share technologies (phasers, warp, batteries, electronic systems etc.).

This does not mean races will be cookie cutter. It does NOT have to mean that at all.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Oh, man. I finished this today, and I just had to post it. It probably just won't work, but it's certainly a different approach.

R7.?? Tholian X2 Battlecruiser

All you Tholian fans ought to love it. Note this is the P5/PC armed variant, rather than the PX/Disr. armed one.

By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Cool Mike. Just make the webs into snares since they would have been upgraded, and add the neat special symbol to the bridge box so its an "S" bridge. I like it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Mike;

A neat ship. I'm curious though, why you went with ph-5 rather than ph-X? I also note that it has no "S Bridge" designated within the outline, but does have the "S Bridge" chart on the SSD. Does the ship actually have S Bridge or not?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Chad's right about the snares. I should have caught that. First snare conversions are Y183 and by Y186 they have been completed on essentially 100% of eligible Tholian ships.

I'm wondering whether the BPV might be too low. Of course, we'll never be sure about BPVs anyway until ships and X2 rules are playtested. And I think I have a natural tendency to assume that for new ships the BPV is more likely to be too low than too high. Not sure why that is.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Ah, shiiiiit. Another example of never getting 'em right the first try. I fixed both. Can't believe the snare thing; hell, it even says on the notes that "Snares are hit on Drone" or what have you. I just guessed on the BPV, really. It does have hefty clout, but I don't think it'll stand up to a battleship; tough call, really, but I'm open to suggestions. The crucial question is does this approach work for a possible X2 battlecruiser? Would this be preferable to the three-hull version (size class problems aside)? Certainly there isn't anything like it before X2; perhaps by X2 the Tholians would be able to construct such a ship.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Mike;

If the Tholians do get an XBC, I think something like this would work, though I would prefer ph-X, as I've already said. I'm also still not sold on Particle Cannons for the Tholians. I guess part of the reason for that is that I'm not at all certain that X-Seltorians won't show up at some point. Maybe they would only show up as Conjectural ships. But even so, I would kind of like to leave X-Particle Cannons for them. If I were sure that X-Seltorians would never be published, a large chunk of my objections to Tholian X-Particle Cannons would vanish (maybe not all of it, but an awful lot of it).

In any event, that's a really nice effort.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit

If I may comment... the only "more than 2xPC" SSDs I've ever found remotely "good looking" is the D.

2xCWs (which is 4xPCs) put together, in any combination, is just ugly.⁴²

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Robert: As it should be!

And it's not really 4 PCs (although it's four casting processes). It's more like a little under three, like 2 2/3 for 2xDW and 2 3/4 for 2xCW.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Loren;

What DW? There have been approximately 1.3 bazillion proposals for a Tholian DW, but none that I know of have been officially accepted. Or did I miss something?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Heh, the proposals were so good I guess I mixed them up in my head. You're right, for some reason I was thinking of Jeremy Grey's proposal.

Ooops.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

I have a silly question:

How is that ship LESS powerful than the D hull version?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit

The only silly part of that question is why you assume anyone thinks it is less powerful; I don't see any post by anyone that claims it is.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

I assumed that because you guys were saying the D based ship was to big and hence you were going to try and make something less powerful.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Unlike the other races prior to the Xorks the Tholians really do have suicidal maniacs out to kill them.