Just a background idea that crossed my mind . . .

THE SECOND SELTORIAN TRIBUNAL

HISTORY

The Seltorians told the Klingons the truth when they said it would be two hundred years before a full, Tholian-crushing fleet would arrive from the Seltorian Home Galaxy. What they didn't mention was that there was a Nest Ship-led Tribunal that had just finished wiping out a small number of Tholian refugees in the Sculptor Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy, and was now headed to supplement the Milky Way Tribunal. They especially didn't mention that they were regularly transmitting data to this force as it made its way to the Milky Way, including word of the ISC attack and Klingon treachery.

So nobody was expecting a large Seltorian fleet to plunge through the Galactic Barrier and WYN Radiation Zone in Y202. WYN forces, deployed to react to invasions from the Galactic plane, did not reach the Seltorian incursion until the ships had recovered from the effects of the radiation zone. They prepared for battle, seeing no way to defeat the invaders, but only a chance to die valliantly in defense of their homes.

They certainly didn't expect to receive a signal from the Seltorians asking for a two-hundred-year settlement lease in the Cluster.

NOW

The relationship between the main WYN population and the Seltorians are much like those between the WYN and the Cluster Cartel. The Nest Admiral has a seat on the WYN governmental council, and the Seltorians have significant settlements on two planets (one previosuly lightly settled by the WYNs and one that had been undeveloped). The Seltorians give the cluster a frigate each year (in which the WYN install their own drone racks and disruptors), plus a steady supply of Klingon-design fighters (made on Seltorian production lines built using Hive Ship-transmitted plans).

The current missions of the Seltorians are 1) to establish a safe beachhead for the fleet from the Home Galaxy, and 2) to keep up with advances in technology so the arriving fleet can be refitted to be able to fight the Tholians 180 years from now. In the meantime, they take vengance on the Klingons by raiding shipping and providing assistance to subject race rebels and terorists; the Kzintis look the other way when the Seltorians use Kzinti space to safely exit the Cluster for these missions.

TECH NOTE

Arriving at the point where second-generation X technology was on the horizon, the Seltorians never refitted the Nest Ship to produce first-generation X ships. They plunged ahead with WYN scientists on developing X2 technology, greatly assisted by defecting scientists from the neighboring empires and such data and devices as the Orions were able to steal.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 10:57 am: Edit

Anything that keeps the Seltorian's around has my vote-of course I have a bias since I created them (Defined them and named them I should say— Rev. Ron Wheeler created the idea of the subject race the Tholian's feared).

My only resevations are A)The Wyn start cluster is a bit far off for the Seltorians to be able to mount assaults against the Tholians. And B) Wasn't the Wyn Star Cluster becoming uninhabitable due to increasing radiation levels around the time you mention?

best regards
Stacy

By John F. Reaves III (Jfreaves) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Hmmmm. The Selts are insects. If the radiation is rising at that point in the timeline, they might not be as vunerable to it as the pathetic mammal species. :-)

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I haven't seen any mention of radiation intensification in the WYN cluster. Maybe it was in the Commander's Edition?

And yeah, it's too far to raid the Tholians. The other choices, as I see them, are

1) The Seltorians setting up in Klingon territory again. This would require significant trust on the part of the Seltorians, given the Klingon's massacre of the remnants of the Hive Fleet. Further, the Klingons wouldn't sell the Seltorians X1 tech; what are the odds the Seltorians could acquire X2 tech, especially if they thought the Seltorians might turn on them in vengance?

2) The Seltorians setting up in Romulan territory. near the Cluster Would the Romulans want the Seltorians there? Could the Seltorians get X2 technology from them? Are the Romulans willing to house sombody hostile to the Klingons, despite the strain on the alliance? OTOH, it also gives the Selts an opportunity to get vengance on local enemies by sending some ships east as part of Romulan forces to raid the ISC . . .

3) Slight modification of my idea above. The Seltorians set up a base in the WYN Cluster, and from that safe base, cut a deal with the Klingons to set up a battle station near Tholian territory, to which they send a supply of warships from WYN space along a Klingon-approved route. It's a bit of a logistical headache, but allows them to continue fighting the Tholians.

Obviously, the WYN cluster is a bit far from the Tholians as a base for the Y380-or-so invasion, but even under my original idea, they have decades to work out a deal with the Klingons or a Klingon successor race -- say, after a successful Hilidarian revolution backed by the Seltorians? The Cluster is simply a secure location from which they can wait until the main fleet arrives.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Well the Wyn radiation increase was mentioned way back in the first X Supplement. I don't know if the info has changed since then-so many things have I'm still trying to get caught up.

As for where the Seltorians I make the observation that there are many Globular Clutsters orbiting the galaxy fairly close by perhaps they'd settle in one of them? For campaign situations it would have the Tholians effectively with three hostile borders and one neutral (Fed).

If there are more Seltorians coming, I hope they bring some true seige weaponry so the Tholians can get a real challenge (Of course by that time the Tholians no doubt would have a few new toys as well).

I don't think anyone wants the Seltorians in the Milky Way. Although I can see the Orions dealing with them.

By the way you mention the SELTORIAN Home Galaxy you meant of course the THOLIAN galaxy which is currently illegally occupied by treasonous elements;)

regards
Stacy

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 10:06 pm: Edit

The Selts with a Hive ship don't need much. A single system would do, habitable planet optional. Their best bet might be something half way to the LMC. Too far away for anyone to claim, close enough to stage raids. They won’t have the Klingons to protect them so I’d begin by setting up homeworld style system defenses, then a series of raids, then a Tholian expedition to exterminate them, only to find the Hive ship left the system before they got there, rinse, repeat.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Our neighborhood: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/_/viewer.aspx?path=e/e3/&name=Tastga73.gif

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit

If it weren't for the distance from the Cluster to the Holdfast, I like the idea of basing this on the original suggestion. Basing it in Romulan space seems viable as well, and may be the best option once proximity to the Holdfast is taken into account^*. After the Klingons wiped out the first Selt expedition, I can't see the next Selt incursion being based in Klingon controlled space. Even if the Selts were willing to let bygones be bygones in order to get another chance to destroy the Holdfast, the Klingons wouldn't know that. They would have to suspect the Selts wanted revenge on them as well. (Look how long the Klingons have held a grudge over the original Tholian conquest of a border province.)

I am also a little dubious about the Selts jumping directly from non-X to X2 technology. That degree of leap-ahead would be very tough for them to manage, no matter how much help they receive from "defecting scientists". How about this as an alternate chronology? They arrive approximately Y202 and immediately start producing X1 ships, based on information forwarded to them by the first Selt expedition before it was destroyed. They begin an accelerated program with (Wynn? Romulan?) help and are able to start producing X2 ships about Y210. They have gone from non-X through X1 to X2 in 8 years (with assistance) while most Alpha races required 20 years or more. But this seems to me more plausible than the Selts skipping X1 completely.

^* What's the Romulan motivation for this? They don't have the hatred for the Tholians that the Klingons do. Well, they do have a bad RPS situation against the Tholians. Not only are webcasters very effective against seeking plasma, but ships caught in web have their cloaks voided. They might easily see an alliance with a race that has some capability to negate web as being in their best interests.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 12:36 am: Edit

Well ONE advantatge of allowing Seltorians in Romulan space is that marauding Klingons would have to go through TWO hostile enclaves to go pick on Romulans (I've never felt that alliance was anything more that of convenience and history of the SFU suggests that's true.).

However, I stick to my original notion find a nice nasty inhospitable globular cluster full of O type stars, and presumably asteroids. The Selts could set up an economy much like the Tholians based on asteroid mining. No one would go looking for them. Perhaps they inadvertantly pick the Iridiani Cluster? Wouldn't THAT be interesting? The Iridani's might have a bone to pick with the Tholians over losing one of their galleons....

Of course whatever challenges you throw at Tholians they will rise to the challenge;)

regards
Stacy

By Adam M. Cook (Drogeney) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 12:36 am: Edit

Another reason the romulans might be interested in helping the Selts get rid of the Tholians would be to establish direct contact with the Klingons in the event of General War II. That would certainly make things easier on both groups.

Of course I could also see the Feds getting involved to keep the Tholians in place for just such an eventuality.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

Hmm one possibility would be to move the Seltorian's over to the Romulan space during the time of the Romulan Civil War. Wasn't one of the losing contingents holed up down by Tholian space? I can see the losing side strike a deal of sort with the Seltorians.

Or perhaps they seize a planet in the Neutral Zone between the Holdfast and Romulan Empire. Neither side wants to evict the Seltorians because to send the fleet size needed would be to invite response from their opposite. And needless to say the Holdfast and the Romulan Senate were NOT sharing notes. Neither would quite know what the attitude of the other was allowing the Seltorians to get entrenched making evicting them all the more difficult.

Or get really creative put in in the neutral zone between Romulans, Tholians & Feds then you would have a THREE way blind mans bluff about the Seltorians.

I still like my globular cluster idea. But these are some inside the galaxy options that make sense to me. In no circumstance do I see an alliance with the Seltorians against the Tholians as being in the Romulans best interest.

The Tholians give them ONE-their ONLY secure border. It's a hostile world for the Romulans and the Seltorians have nothing to offer them. A fleet usuable ONLY for attacking the Tholians who the Romulans would just as soon see stay where they were.

The Seltorians will not bring a proper fleet to the Milky Way galaxy until like 2-300 years in the future and so have no practical baragining power...unless there is an aspect previously unrevealed to them....?

Perhaps a bizarre deal with the Jindarians angry at Tholians for stealing prime asteroids! Stir the pot from conflict history is born!;)
regards
Stacy

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 05:38 am: Edit

Given that the Klingons were about to invade Romulan Space, and that the arrival of the Tholians prevented this, I would definitely think that the Romulans see the Tholians as a buffer between them and the Klingons.

After all, the Tholians set up shop in what had been Klingon space, not Romulan. The Tholians don't leave Tholian space, which means that they don't enter Romulan space. If I were a Romulan, I'd send the Tholians a "welcome to the neighborhood" fruit basket or something. This means, of course, that the Seltorians -- ANY Seltorians -- would not be welcomed by the Romulans under ANY circumstances. "Kill our buffer zone? Eat Plasma-R, you bugs!" (insert voice-over of a Dalek screaming "Ex-ter-min-ate! Ex-ter-min-ate!")

(Keep in mind that while the Romulans were allied with the Klingons during the General War, this was a marriage of convenience. It should not be considered a reason why the Romulans liked the Klingons, even a little bit. The Treaty Of Smarba gave the Romulans parity re technology, and all the Romulans had to do in return was attack the Federation and Gorns, which they were doing anyway. Had the Klingons asked the Romulans to send ships to their side of the galaxy, the Romulans would certainly have cooked up some excuse to get out of it.)

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 08:08 am: Edit

X0 to X2 was based on two things. The first was a desire not to invalidate the "never used X-ships" tech by interpreting that to mean "no X1 tech". The second was that, with the Seltorians as "associated" members of the Cluster, if the WYN have X2 tech (which may not be plausible, but is from comments SVC made, inevitable), the Selts could acquire the tech from them. (All my talk of defectors and such was to explain how the WYN got X2.)

Transfers to allies have allowed rapid catch-up in SFB before -- the Romulans caught up an entire century worth of tech in just three years after Smarba (the time from the Y159 treaty to the Y162 general deployment of War Eagles), and were cranking out the New Series ships less than a decade after the deal. Going from late GW tech to X2 is a much smaller jump.

As far as location: an independent globular cluster makes sense as a base. However, if it was practical for the Seltorians to regularly cross the galactic barrier (which F&E establishes is not true for the Galactic powers), why didn't the Hive Ship set up there? More room to colonize and build shipyards in than the limited area the Klingons gave them, and no need to worry about barrier-limited Galactics bothering them. (The other problem is the Seltorians developing X2 while a small population without heavy interaction with the rest of the galaxy.)

Hmm. Another place to stick 'em would be in the former LDR, playing off the Hydrans, Klingons, and Lyrans . . . (brief, insane thoughts of Seltorians finding some still-functional manufacturing gear and CAD files, installing ESGs in place of web breakers and gatling phasers in place of the ph-3s . . .)

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 08:12 am: Edit

And yeah, I don't think Selts in Romulan space make sense. But then, I didn't think Operation Nutcracker made any sense, either. ("Okay, fine. After you've built the Inseparable, we'll help you clear a path through Tholian space to deliver it.")

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 10:00 am: Edit

Well when the Seltorians ended up in Klingon space they were at the time still searching for the Tholians at which time the Klingons said "Oh we have this empty planet over here...."

I have the same misgivings about Seltorians in LDR space as Wyn Space. It's hard to kill Tholians when you have a LARGE hostile empire between you and them.

And no Operation Nutcracker made no sense-except as the act of desperation that it was. Had the Klingons and the Romulans been able to establish a unified front with free exchange of resources the Feds would have had a real bad time.
regards
Stacy

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 11:20 am: Edit

I'm yet to be convinced that the Selts need X2 tech to accomplish their mission. Then again I'm yet to be convinced that the Tholians need serious X2 tech. The development needs of the Selts and Tholians are dramatically different than the other races.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 11:41 am: Edit

The question I have is what about X1 Selts? They don't exist, right? How will jumping from GW to X2 be justified in the timeline? Particularly when they use weapons unique to themselves, which they can't steal from another race?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Well, I'm going to continue to argue for Romulan space.

The original Wynn idea is very attractive except for the huge problem that it's too far from the Holdfast. Same goes for LDR space. The Selts aren't here to carve out an enclave in this galaxy (though the other races may not know that), they are here to exterminate the Holdfast. The Selts and the Klingons would now possess a very high level of mutual distrust, if not outright hatred. Klingon space is out. The Feds would never allow such operations from their space and more than any other race have the muscle to prevent them. Fed space is out.

That leaves operations from Romulan space or from outside the galactic barrier.

I also disagree with the notion the Romulans would leave the Tholian border alone because it's the only secure border. That may have been true once, but by the timeframe we're talking about two dynamics may have irrevocably changed that. One is that the Romulans cooperated with the Klingons during Operation Nutcracker, an attempted genocide which nearly exterminated the Holdfast. Old antagonisms may have been put aside during the Andro invasion. But if you're the Romulans post-Andro, do you really want to bet the rent money that the Tholians harbor no thoughts of payback? The second dynamic is of course the webcaster, which gives the Tholians a formidable ability to mount offensive operations if they so choose. They presumably will never have the logistics capability to drive all the way to the Romulan capitol. But they sure could mess up a couple of border provinces. During the Trade Wars period, the Romulans simply can't look at the Tholian border the way they did pre-GW.

One final point is that the Romulans, at least from what I can recall from published background material, still seem to believe they are "destined" to one day rule the galaxy. The ISC and Andros were unfortunate but ultimately temporary setbacks. That being the case, they would plan on eventually having to attack the Tholians again. It sure would be nice to have an ally (a "junior partner" of course) who is good at fighting Tholians.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit

The Tholians are not the Romulan's friends, the Seltorians are not the Romulan's friends.

The Seltorians are focused on the destruction of the Holdfast, not an undesirable idea for the Romulans.

The Tholians have the Web Caster and are excellent against plasma, the Seltorians are no better at defending against sabot plasma than anybody else.

If I were the Romulans I'd rather have the Seltorians as neighbors then the Tholians.

Based on the projected size of the neutral zones and the state of the Romulan economy I don't think the Romulans would be in the mood to object to the Seltorians setting up shop in an unoccupied system. If we can't leave them outside the energy barrier then I vote for Romulan space.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

X2 Era Selts make as much sense to me as X2 Carnivons. They were wiped out with no expectation that they would be.

However, like the Carnivons, they could come from somewhere else but remnants of the original Selts would not be able to even develope new tech. They did develope PF's but that was a ship design type and not a new technology in it's self. And X2 Web Breaker, for instance, would be far beyond their capabilities to develope, IMHO.

If Selts are to re-emerge in the X2 era they would have to be a new wave from the Old Galaxy with X1 level weapons (they headed out a LOOOONG time ago after all) or some survived somewhere and reproduced at their highly rapid rate. This new set of Selts would have a similar goal in mind but would have to mostly start over technologically. This would mean new ships entirely and would not share technologies common in the galaxy. Their main upper hand in combat would be attritian. Huge numbers of capable combat soldiers and pilots and with an additional enemy...the Klingons.

Hmmm, might the Selts come back to join with the Xorks?

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Why the Klingons didn't get the web breaker tech I can't understand.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Why the Klingons didn't get the web breaker tech I can't understand.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 07:05 pm: Edit

War has a way of jumpstarting innovation.

There is some basis for believing that the Tholians had very powerful technology that they did't use because they didn't need to. The automated forges that the Holdfast Tholians depend on is a good example.

Suppose the Seltorans got ahold of some of that advanced tech and/or reserached a super-fast strategic warp speed?

The Alpha Secotr Seltorans might not know about the latest developments from home and the Seltorans at home might actually choose not to tell them. The result is that the Seltorans tell the Klinks what they honestly believe: that it'll be a loooong time before any new Seltorans can come out this way.

Then in 40 years, super-advanced Seltorans show up unexpected whose tech is X2-equivalent, but may not proceed along the same path as Alpha Sector X2, save for conveienence on the par of the ADB.

The most interesting place I can think of the put them isn't Klink or Rom space.

Try the Federation.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 08:05 pm: Edit

The Feds would never permit a colony whose entire reason for existence is genocide to operate like that in their space. Prime Directive be darned. And it is not in the Feds best interest to see the Tholians fall. Every empire bordering the Tholians is better off for having them there. The Tholians have only launched one unilateral strike against a bordering empire and that was to seize disruptor tech from the Klingons way back when. The only other offensive expeditions it did were either in conjunction with the General War or Operation Unity.

I think in the end you are either stuck with putting them in the Neutral Zone between the Holdfast and Romulans or what I think offers many more possibilities as far as generating scenerios-putting them in a globular cluster outside the galaxy.

Outside the galaxy the Seltorians would have a large number of possibilitys for foes. The Tholians of course, wandering lost Andromedans, the Iridani, the Sudra etc.

Inside the galaxy you lock them pretty much 100% of time the Tholians and maybe some vengence bouts with the Klingons. When crafting this stuff I'm always for the option that leaves you more possibilities for growth in the future.

The only alternative is find another nebula like the Wyn down along the galactic rim....perhaps a pocket inside the great barrier?
regards
Stacy

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Why the Klingon's didn't get hold of web breaker tech? Same reason no one else could have web-SVC said so!

I suspect that people have gotten enough pieces of ships to duplicate both technologies-but at what cost?

Bear in mind weapons development always has a high start up cost. In both cases these technologies represent directions the Galactics haven't even looked!

My own pet theory is that both these technologies were outgrowth of quantam black hole research which I believe the Tholian galaxy had in greater abundance than the Milky Way. This gave the Tholians (And Seltorians) a big leap forward in understanding gravity.

regards
Stacy