I don't think the last 100 years of naval tech is particularly relevant. That comparison would be more accurate when comparing the Space Shuttle to a YTUG. Maybe SFB tech doesn’t improve at the same rate as 1905-2004 naval tech?

To compare SFB progress consider the Fed CA (125, Y130) to a CB (162, Y175). Sure the CB is significantly better, but force both players to use only narrow-salvos and the CA will win some games. In SFB that’s a 45-year span and a 37 BPV difference.

Assuming Y205 as the start of X2 production how would it compare to a ship 45 years ago? In Y160 the Feds just released the CAR (129, Y160). Adding in 37 BPV found in the CA->CB upgrade leaves us a bit short for an X2 target (166 BPV). By this admittedly imperfect metric, perhaps we are aiming too high?

If you insist on using terrestrial naval tech as an example, lets look at cold war production vs. 2005 production US surface ships. I’ll let someone who knows what they are talking about draw a suitable comparison.

Personally I feel an even more telling example is to look at cold war production vs. 2005 production Soviet/Russian surface ships. Sure 2005 production is better, but there is only so much a bankrupt economy can do. Anyone got a copy of Jane’s handy?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Too build ships appropiate for a time of peace seems way out to me. Sure in retrospect from Y225 that is easy but consider the view of the governments of Y204 (when X2 designs are being set).

Yes, there is no decleared war. The GW is over but with no true loser. The war started for a reason and that reason never met it's end except that the Allies stopped the Colition from achieving their goals. Then everyone got hammered by the ISC. The the Andros came. By the end of the Andro war every one is on equal footing. NOT like at the end of the GW. The Klingons have recovered well when you compare realative force strength to the Feds. At the end of the GW a Allie enforced peace was almost a given but the ISC and Andros totally destroyed that.

In Y204 the ONLY thing keeping the peace would be mutual willingness (everyones seen enough war? Are you sure?) and perhaps a certain sense of Oneness gained from having fought against to powerful outsiders.

But from the PoV of the Y204 military planners no one knows there will be peace. Fed planners will imediatly start making contigency plans for a Klingon invasion and vice versa and so one through out the Alpha races. Everyone hopes for peace. No one knows there will be peace. Everyone is going to prepare for there NOT to be peace.

I can think of a dozen reasons that any of the Allies or Colition races might attack the other in Y204. I can see the tenuous peace being tested by an attack to gain a small but important objective then use exhaustion from war as a plateform to sue for peace. The Romulans know the Fed people is weary of war. They might strike here or there in a limited war then sue for peace thinking the Feds will take it rather than enter into an extended war. And even if they don't do this the Feds will have surely considered and planned for them to do this.

Y204+ is going to be a VERY uneasy time. The Empire Forces will not downsize or prepare to enjoy a period of peace, IMO.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Loren,

I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at here. You mention "...ships appropriate for a time of peace..." but it doesn't seem to me that that is what people are actually advocating. As I understand it, a pre-Xork X-ship is quite capable of fighting but, unlike a CW, BCH, or CX, it is not designed to be a pure warship. That's a very different thing then being "appropriate for a time of peace".

The economic/political/strategic situation in the early X2 years requires ships that can re-establish contact with ruined and isolated colonies, conduct evaluations/assessments of devastated planets, help said colonies/planets "get back on their feet", and do all this in a very dangerous and chaotic galaxy. The races need ships that are capable of fighting, but cannot afford to build ships that are capable of doing nothing but fighting. That's what I take an XCA to be. After some years they have sort-of re-established their respective infrastructures. Then the Xorks show up and the incursion is so threatening that the Alphas (plus the Tholians of course) can survive only by combining the latest technology with combat-optimized hulls. That's where the XCC and XBC types show up.

The above at least is, in very rough terms, how I imagine the X2 era. Is this different from your view, and if so could you be more specific as to what you are recommending? It seems to me you might be saying the Alphas and Tholians would build XCC/XBC type ships (i.e. combat-optimized pure warships) from the start of the X2 era, but I am not sure if I'm reading you correctly.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Loren,

I think a better term is "uncertain". Nobody know what's going to happen next.

The only thing people are sure of is the way of life they're used to (prepetual warfare) is NOT going to be what happens.

This is why I think a naval treaty would be welcome as it would provide a framework for getting one's bearings again.

Stacy,
I also don't think naval development over the last 100 years is necessarily valid. The reason: technological development has been revving along at an unprecedented pace. There's no reason to assume the pace of change in the SFU mirrors the current day entirely.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Alan:Your view isn't far from mine at all. Ideed, since the beginning of the X-Files I've avocated that the races will all be Empire Re-Building.

John: "Uncertain" is a great term. The threat of GWII is minor but the threat of war isn't.

I think that X2 will serve a duel purpose. That of a powerful deterent and an Empire ship (or in the case of the Fed a Diplomatic Security Vessel). I know you din't care for my XCC but as a singular class it fills that role. My other designs are the meat and potatoes of the Fleets. The XCC is the beyond the lines vessel while the XCA/XCM is the front line vessel. The XCL and XDD are the forward areas ship and the XFF is the everywhere ship but not over the lines.

Various non-X2 ships would fit in whereever their X2 equivelent fits with only the most powerful Non-X2 ships working over the lines.

The XCC I designed was designed to be a fully independant operator. Capable of operating out of supply for a full F&E turn. Also capable of securing new and reestablishing old contacts. The Captains of the ships would have a bit of an Ambasitorial role.

Whether it's my design or another doesn't matter. This is the role I think it will have to serve.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Actually, SVC "Anything Box" goes to serve this end very nicely. Although I'd rather not see it be capable of changing on a turn by turn basis. That would be a bit like the Holo-Deck on TNG (when they used it for practical functions rather than purely entertainment).

However, a NWO box that the ship is capable of changing itself between scenarios is very attractive to me. This would be noted at the beginning of a scenario and the opponant would know what it is until it is reveiled in some way.

An anything anytime box would have less suprise factor since the opponant simply has to deal with it being anything. The limit on the player actually make planning by the opponant a little more difficult.

This would make it more fun to play as the ship can be slightly different each game.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Lets review our known SFU history:

Y168 GW started. Colony worlds either captured or devastated. Military logistical infrastructure targeted for destruction.

Y186 GW ended. All races exhausted. Military logistical infrastructure in tatters. Colony worlds devastated, enslaved or abandoned.

Y187 ISC are busy forcing the warring parties further apart from each other. Colony worlds abandoned.

Y188 Andros begin full-scale invasion of Empires. They destroy military infrastructure but largely ignore colony worlds.

Y197 "At the height of their power the Andromedans had reduced the Romulan, Gorn, ISC, Lyran and Hydran Empires to small areas around their home systems (perhaps a dozen F&E hexes). The other races had suffered less only because the Andros had not attacked them yet.”

Y198 RTN network heavily disrupted.

Y202 Operation Unity ends with the destruction of the Andromedan Star Base in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud.

Y205 X2 vessels first appear in service. Trade Wars begin.

You all know this. What’s my point?

Summary:
1) The Empires are reduced to a dozen F&E hexes post Y197.
2) Major combat operations end in Y202.
3) Trade War Y205.

In five years the races defended their remaining home space, destroyed the RTN, mounted Op:U and defeated the Andros. When did they have time to subjugate their lost colonies? They didn’t. The neutral zone is now huge and completely bereft of military infrastructure. Remote colony worlds haven’t seen a friendly cruiser in a generation and have long since learned to fend for themselves. Major colonies and collectives of small colonies (Vudar, Orion, WYN) have economies and defenses far too large for the depleted Empires to militarily annex and no Empire is stable enough to risk trade sanctions for the attempt.

The Empires lack the power, economy, political will and most importantly infrastructure to invade their neighbors through the now vast neutral zone. The logistical lessons learned from Op:U went a long way, but it was still impossible to field offensive operations so far from your supply grid against an equal opponent. Better to tackle smaller prey first, build your economy and regain the allegiance of the break away colonies.

Conversely the reverse is also true. No Empire feared invasion from anyone else because it would take years to build the necessary infrastructure to support such an invasion. No GW2, at least not yet. With no immediate threat to your Empire you can afford to build reconstruction ships in place of warships and mothball or sell to colonies your military surplus. Thus begin the Trade Wars as each Empire attempts to diplomatically influence the neutral colonies and trade cartels. The mission of reconstruction will define ship design.

Is a treaty required? Not really. The history that I have outlined is equally valid both with and without a treaty. A convenience of the Treaty is we can build ships that can easily be converted to warships needed for the Xork invasion, but it’s not required. Without a treaty we can convert cargo boxes to weapons and power when the Xorks arrive.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Tos,

There is an unaccounted-for aspect to your timeline: The vulnerability to being sucked into an arms-race.

War historians check my facts: IIRC the RW Washington naval treaty had two goals:

1) To check the pace of ship production
2) To check the rate of technological change

The alternative was empires bankrupting themselves tryting to keep up with their neighbors.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

To answer Tos's question on a modern wet navy ship comparison look at the Arleigh Burke class. Some of you may have heard of the Spruance class DD. It was oriented toward ASW. A anti-surface version was made, I beleve it was called the Kidd class. The anti-air version was the Aegis crusier. Each was optimized for a specific fleet role in a carrier group. They had to operate in groups

Advanced were made in radar (phased array), sonar, and missle launch systems(VLS cell). The Arleigh Burked combined some of each of these high tech capablities into one hull. This class can do independant patrols.

It is an analog for the XCA. The XCA is defined by most of the ideas above. Any ship is a compromise between competing demands. For a SFB ship we could come up with a general list. Two ovious ones are power and weapons verses systems like labs and probes. A treaty provides an avenuse to bring racial flavor back. How the Federation determines how to meet the treaty requirements will be different than the Klingons.

Two pre-WWII washington treaty BBS were the HMS Rodney and the USS Washington. There is no mistaking one for the other. That my 1 cents worth.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 02:57 am: Edit

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Too build ships appropiate for a time of peace seems way out to me. Sure in retrospect from Y225 that is easy but consider the view of the governments of Y204 (when X2 designs are being set).

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Everyone hopes for peace. No one knows there will be peace. Everyone is going to prepare for there NOT to be peace

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Conversely the reverse is also true. No Empire feared invasion from anyone else because it would take years to build the necessary infrastructure to support such an invasion.

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The alternative was empires bankrupting themselves tryting to keep up with their neighbors.

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The Arleigh Burked combined some of each of these high tech capablities into one hull. This class can do independant patrols.

It is an analog for the XCA.

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By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 03:07 am: Edit

Not quite, Joe. The Kidd class DDGs were built from Spruances, but not for the US Navy -- they were originally built for the Shah of Iran.

When his government fell to the Ayatolah, the US government decided not to deliver them, and the US Navy became the lucky recipient of four shiny new ships.

What had been a primarily ASW platform became a jack-of-all-trades, good at AAW and surface warfare, but not so good at ASW. Very arguably, these four ships were the best variant of the Spruance built.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 10:11 am: Edit

Tos: Very nicely done! You made clear that it is reasonable that the races can expect no major war for a time but also showed there is a level of threat of a diffierent kind.

It is also clear the the mission for X2 is different from any before and one X2 will serve at best. Prior to the GW there were wars that everyone fought. The Fed too although most of their mission was exploration.

In Y205 this mission is all but gone, even for the Feds. Infrastracture does need rebuilding but you can be sure that by Y205 every race has rushed out to at least their original boarders (or near there) and established outposts. COntact with the furthest systems would be made although actual support would take quite some time to establish.

These weak reestablished boarders would be hot beds for conflict. Certainly some races are going to claim thier boarder, their original boarder, is a little more this way than it was.

The races will probably face off a lot but without any serious destruction. Fighting over these systems would be to try an drive off the enemy rather than kill him as in war. This is a job for something like a big showy XCC.

So, as far as reestablishment of the Empires goes they will be built up from the center out and slowly at that but first a speedy drive to (re)claim the Empires boarders is needed. That puts ship far from supply, smak dap in the middle of the Wild West.

Come to think of it, this period of Y203 to Y210 could be one of the most fun periods to play all three game systems in (SFB, F&E, GPD).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 11:13 am: Edit

Loren, I differ in certain ways from what you describe.

Yes a race can race out and set up an outpost at the original border, but why? Other then a political stunt what does such a thing hope to accomplish? There is a saying that goes “no taxation without representation”. In the era of the Trade Wars this means to me “if you can’t protect my colony then I’m not paying taxes.” Sure the Feds can send a diplomat to colonies that were abandoned 30 years ago, but what does he have to offer? He can’t protect them. He can’t send economic aid from the bankrupt capital province. And all he wants in return is to collect the unpaid taxes for the last 30 years. I’m sure there are any number of colonies that can’t wait to sign up. Sending a show the flag XCC isn’t going to suddenly make the colony leaders forget that when things get tough the Empire cuts and runs. It’s going to be a lot harder to bring sovereign colony planets back into the fold then sending out a great white fleet to wave the flag. Independence, once gained through blood is not something to be abandoned lightly.

Take your typical F&E hex. If you have 20 minor independent colonies and 1 is Federation sponsored that doesn’t mean that Federation has reclaimed the entire F&E hex, it means they have one tiny outpost in a sea of independents. Now an opposing Empire bribes a colony into being part of its political sphere with the gift of a squadron of old D5K cruisers plus crew. 18 independent + 1 Fed sponsored + 1 Klingon leaning = disputed sector, and the Klingons are the ones with the on-site naval forces. Sure this was once a Fed claimed area of space, but more recently it was a Klingon claimed area of space. In the end claims don’t matter, what matters is economic control of a colonies trade. Remember this, we are trying to find a justification for the Trade Wars and to make the Trade Wars as diverse a battlefield as possible.

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Conversely the reverse is also true. No Empire feared invasion from anyone else because it would take years to build the necessary infrastructure to support such an invasion.


I'm not sure if that's a dependable idea. A three CVA (Fed) fleet ( with their escorts ) backed up but an NSC & GSC and whatever room is left for CBs, BCHs and NCAs; might not be able to move like an X-squadron but when it comes to hammering the Klingon homeworld, it doesn't need to move quickly and the Klingons can't be sure it isn't sitting just beyond sensor range.

Sure the Feds say their ecconomy is Kaputt...but can you really trust them!?!

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Yes a race can race out and set up an outpost at the original border, but why?

To secure the Empire from outsiders. You then proceed to fill in the rest. If you simply move out from the center and build as you can when you reach you old boarders and probably before then, you will find the other Empires have raced out and claimed it.

Will, they do that? A small maybe not. Were I playing the Klingons I would race out and claim a boarder that encompasses as much territory as I can, then set up a boarder defense in places where I'm sure will be contested. Some boarders I will simply stop at the original lines such as those with the Lyrans. I might not care to mess with the Hydrans too much but would likely claim the NZ. I would try with all due haste to claim the lower area of the Federation and connect with the Romulans.

If I were the Feds I would expect such a move and act to prevent it.

Then there is places like Mantor. You might not be able to claim the system itself but if you can claim the area around it that about good enough.

Races, generally, won't want to fight new boarder wars so getting out there and establishing a boarder as quickly as possible is paramount. This is done by establishing a few direct routes to the old boarders then branching out around the Empire.

The Trade Wars were defined in Supp2 but SVC has mentioned that that discription may no longer fit. I've suggested that the Trade Wars involve trade with the LMC. Still, establishing boarders will be tenuous. certainly the points where there is a direct line back to the Empire core will be the strongest but as you move out and around the empire the wall is weak and pourous. These are the places where the classical Trade Wars can occure.

Don't worry, I'll not mess up creating the TWs. I want them but I want the Empires to behave logically and in keeping with Humanoid nature and with appropeate consideration of recent history (which is why I love that post of your Toss. We may draw differing conclusions but the establishment of the historical context is great!).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit

I see your point, it provides for some necessary conflict between Empires. The neutral zone is big enough for both ideas.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

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Since the Andros could be anywhere at anytime before your fleet elements could react the only way to defend against them was to build an impregnable fortress of layered defenses. No mere GW era CVA fleet is going to put a dent in those defenses, and no one would be crazy enough to try.

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Will, they do that? A small maybe not. Were I playing the Klingons I would race out and claim a boarder that encompasses as much territory as I can, then set up a boarder defense in places where I'm sure will be contested. Some boarders I will simply stop at the original lines such as those with the Lyrans. I might not care to mess with the Hydrans too much but would likely claim the NZ. I would try with all due haste to claim the lower area of the Federation and connect with the Romulans.

If I were the Feds I would expect such a move and act to prevent it.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Even if the treaty doesn't come to pass we could still say that ecconomic and technological pressures for the ships to be offensively little better than there X1 predecessors and thus we get the 12Ph-1 Vs 8Ph-5s paradymn.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 12:53 am: Edit

In (R10.1B) it says the Andromedans (Y197) had reduced the Romulan, Gorn, ISC, Lyran, and Hydran empires to small areas, perhaps a dozen F&E hexes. The other races were under considerable pressure. Those other races would be the Federation, Klingons, and Kzinti empires. So how many F&E hexes are left in these empires?

The Andros leave the Tholians alone. I don't know the history of the the LDR and Wyn at this point. The Vudar is a new empire. What battles happen between the Vudar and Andros? Also same question regarding Jindos and Andros. Are there any other empires or races.

The final question is what have the Andros done to the Hydran old colonies and Lyran distance star colonies?

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 02:06 am: Edit

Andros utterly destroyed the LDR (R14.1), don't try to do much against the Vudar in their radiation zones (according to GURPS Klingons, p.61), and have as hard a time even finding the Jindarians as anybody else (IIRC).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 09:26 am: Edit

Tos,

I have to disagree with your argument about "No mere GW era CVA fleet..." being a threat to fixed defenses in the post-Andro era. Even post-Andro a fully outfitted CVA (or more likely an SCS) provides a huge amount of combat power, much more than one X-cruiser does. Where the CVA or SCS could run into problems is that the infrastructure devastation might make it impossible to logistically support such an operation due to the extended range between your forward bases and your intended targets. The range issue might indeed require that only X-ships be used for such an attack. But given the logistics capability to support an SCS-based assault on enemy bases or planets, that fleet would still be very powerful at the tactical level, even well into the X-era.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 09:39 am: Edit

No doubt a Fed CVA is a powerful unit, but:

1) Its too far out of supply and between drone and fighter replacements becomes ineffective quickly when out of supply. Unless it managed to completely sneak up on you it would be attrit to death before even reaching the intended target.

2) I make the assumption that the races are roughly equal during this time. If you can mount such a fleet, so can I.

3) The races are technically allied during this period making such an assault internally destabilizing.

3) With only a dozen hexes to defend the defense dollar goes a lot farther. Fixed defenses are relatively cheap.

4) The reason these dozen hexes didn’t fall to the Andros is each was powerful enough to fight off at least a lone Dominator group.

As you point out the crux of my position is logistical.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 10:25 am: Edit

This brings up an idea I've been kicking around, and wanted to post to see what other people think. I want to stress that this idea is explicitly illegal under current rules. But I'm wondering (haven't made up my mind yet) whether a rule change with specific limitations might not be reasonable.

1. For most races, a fully outfitted SCS is the most combat power that can be concentrated in one hull (one Command Rating slot) even in the X-ship era.

2. The rules require an SCS to have dedicated escorts. For the most part, these escorts are good at killing fighters and seeking weapons, but not very good against enemy ships. Against some enemies (Andros, Lyran or Tholian fleet that doesn't include a carrier) the escorts are sometimes a waste of BPV, and what may be more important, a waste of CR slots. This dilutes the value of the SCS against some opponents.

3. X-ships have the technical capability to perform effectively as escorts. By the X-ship era "true" escorts would have full Aegis, but X-ships only have partial Aegis. On the other hand, X-ships a) can use their Aegis capability against PFs and against targets up to 15 hexes away, b) ignore small target modifiers, c) can obtain a negative DRM, and d) usually have more close range phaser firepower than "true" escorts (the exception being those escorts with Gatling phasers). And unlike most true escorts, the X-ships are also highly effective against enemy ships.

4. Allowing players to use X-ships as the required escorts for SCS/CVAs would play hell with retroactive continuity, and could also cause huge problems for F&E. One way around this would be to make a rule that the practice is not allowed until Y(whatever - but not until sometime during the Andro invasion). Reasons for this restriction could include the fact that prior to this point there were not enough X-ships available to dedicate any for this role. Also during the GW and ISC Pacification, there were very few instances of major battles that didn't involve enemy fighters or seeking weapons, so the "escort-as-waste-of-CR-slot" wasn't an issue. During the Andro Invasion, it became a major issue, however. (No, I haven't forgotten about Andro "Armed Mobile Units", or whatever they're called. I just don't think they're important enough to invalidate the larger point.)

5. Besides the technical capability, there is a crew training issue. "Ordinary" X-ship crews don't have the specialized training in carrier operations necessary to to fill the dedicated escort role. To account for this X-ship escorts should have a BPV increase representing both the crew training requirements and the ready racks necessary to handle their carrier's fighters. (This would be the only physical difference between the standard and escort version of an X-ship. Alternately, X-ship escorts might also be given full Aegis, which would require a larger BPV increase.) For campaign purposes only a limited number of X-ships would be allowed to act as escorts, and these specifically designated X-ships would generally be restricted from operating in a non-escort role.

6. Only the most important carriers (SCS/CVA/X-carrier/maybe BCS/BCV/ACS/DCS) would ever have X-escorts. They would never be available to run-of-the-mill carriers.

Those are my thoughts on X-ships as carrier escorts. Anyone think this is worth investigating, or should it be dropped down the memory hole?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 01:29 am: Edit

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2. The rules require an SCS to have dedicated escorts. For the most part, these escorts are good at killing fighters and seeking weapons, but not very good against enemy ships.

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Those are my thoughts on X-ships as carrier escorts. Anyone think this is worth investigating, or should it be dropped down the memory hole?

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 09:52 pm: Edit

MJC,

I think you're mixing up general rules and specific exceptions. Most SCSs don't have Special Sensors and do require escorts.

Note that S8.31 and S8.311 require carriers to have their escorts for any fleet built according to the S8 rules.

Note also that SCSs have the "V" designator in the Notes section of the Master Ship Chart, confirming they are carriers.

Note finally that in the R-Section write-up for the Kzinti SSCS (R5.24), there is a comment stating that the SSCS often operated without escorts, just after the box showing fighters and escorts. Most SCS write-ups, including the "non-super" version of the Kzinti SCS (which doesn't have Special Sensors) lack this comment.

So I believe that SCSs are in fact required to have their escorts, with the SSCS being a specific exception to the general rule.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 12:24 am: Edit

Maybe I am only thinking of the Kzinti SSCS.