I think it strange the Selts wouldn't try transfer that tech to the Klinks.
In any case I'd love to see X2 Klinks attacking and cracking Tholia with webbreakers!

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 06:42 am: Edit

The question I have is what about X1 Selts? They don't exist, right? How will jumping from GW to X2 be justified in the timeline? Particularly when they use weapons unique to themselves, which they can't steal from another race?

The Smarba precedent holds quite well for everything but the Selt-unique weapons; all the Selts need is a local power to do a tech transfer. Obviously, any X2 improvements to the PC and WB would need to be justified in terms of the selling power's own X2 tech as applied to those weapons. (A restriction on Seltorian weapon upgrades that might serve as the inspiration for some truly unique approaches.)

If Selts are to re-emerge in the X2 era they would have to be a new wave

Yes, they would. Which is why, in the first post, I suggested that this was a tribunal fresh from wiping out a small number of Tholians in the Sculptor Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy. (Why that one? Well, it's established in other canon that the Andromeda Galaxy is 200 years away from the Milky Way. The Sculptor Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy is a real galaxy approximately ten times closer, physically, than the real Andromeda galaxy, which makes it a tenth the time away. Y182 to Y202 is 20 years . . .) They'd arrive with the GW tech and acquire X2 here.

Romulan space is growing on me as an alternative to WYN. Of course, one of the things I like about WYN space (they're strategically operating against Tholians by maintaining a base for the refitting of the Y380-arriving Home Galaxy fleet, but operationally are skirmishing with the Klingons, Kzintis, and Lyrans instead of Tholians) is seen as a defect by many.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

We already have the precedent of the Vudar popping up in the devastated area between two empires. Maybe the Neo-Seltorians could show up in the Gal-North edge of Romulan space. (Indeed, maybe this group would wind up allying with the Romulans, sort of a "Jacked Over By The Klingons Club".)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 10:45 am: Edit

The Vudar didn't just "pop up", though. They were a Klingon subject race and already in the geographic area they occupy now. The Selts would have to arrive from somewhere. I think the Roms letting them have some space right between the Tholians and themselves would be a very Rom thing to do. Creates the instant buffer, and keeps them both busy.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 02:03 pm: Edit

The Vudar also had already started building "extra" ships and keeping them hidden in the hole in the Great Barrier. The Klingons were to distarcted by the Allaince threat to divert the forces to crush the Vudar.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 08:27 pm: Edit

In CL 15 in the encyclopedia page 64; "Y182 The Seltorians arrive and begin fighting Tholians )SH 114) and their allies (SH115)." Those scenarios are in C3. I think Mike R made a good point about Selts and Rom territory. During the Andro invasion the Roms control about 12 hexes around their capital planet. The Selt being Rom space near Tholia makes sense.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 01:05 am: Edit

I can't see the Romulans tolerating the Seltorians in their space once they got back on their feet. And the Tribunal doesn't have the defenses against the Romulans the Tholians have. So are you transporting the Seltorians from one unstable situation to another?

Maybe the Seltorians become a wandering race. Getting resources from asteroids and buying what they need from traders and pirates.

Myself I still think find them a nice off the map gobular cluster to serve as a home base-perhaps it's along the path to the LMC in Operation Unity. Perhaps it's off the beaten path.

I have an idea...perhaps they become wards of the Masters at the Galactic Core. And THEY provide them with 2X tech. They send the Seltorian's forth to attack the Tholians regular as clock work once ever six months- just for sport. By force of will alone the Masters transport entire fleets across millions of parsecs of space from the Galactic Core to the Holdfast on the rim of the galaxy.

The Tholians and the Seltorians get into a cycle of raid and ambush fueling weapons development on both sides made worse because the Tholians know where they are staging from but it is far beyond their reach (Or is it....? But you know I can't see the Tholians taking out the Masters...)

Any other scenerios that would allow the Selrorians to continue in their jihad against the Tholians would have to involve "wormholes" or "warp gates" or such....

And SVC just HATES those (Or at least he used to. Perhaps he has mellowed...?)

By the way I can't see much point to the Seltorians if they aren't following their bliss;)
regards
Stacy

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 08:06 am: Edit

---

Quote:

I can't see the Romulans tolerating the Seltorians in their space once they got back on their feet. And the Tribunal doesn't have the defenses against the Romulans the Tholians have. So are you transporting the Seltorians from one unstable situation to another?

---

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:17 am: Edit

My issue is that the Selts are well understood and their probogation rates makes them dangerous. It think this is part of the reason the Klingons finished them off. They were able to over throw a galactic wide empire of Tholians (a group of which cannot be towwed out of a tiny corner of pur galaxy and the Selts go ride of a whole galaxy of them). I think that the races (heck, including the Fed) whould just rather not mess with those unkowns.

I don't think the Romulans are too concerned with the Tholians going on the offensive. If they did the Klingons would join in quickly as this would be a sign that the Tholians were on the move towards expansion. The Klingons cannot allow the Tholians to become stronger.

But the Tholians would not make such a move either. Thier prime motivation is to protect their one last home containing the last group of their race (as far as they know). By Y205 pretty much everyone understands the Tholian prime motivation which should stand at least until they get a second sphere going (or confirm there are more elsewhere. But that is a story for another time...like Y300+ (read: never).

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:25 am: Edit

Mike;

I can't see the Romulans ever allowing the Seltorians to control territory inside Romulan space, for a few reasons.
1) The Tholians have never threatened the Romulan border; it is in effect a quiet front. In this respect they don't need a buffer. If the Tholians ever really threaten them, and they needed help, they would just ask the Klingons for assistance against the aggressive Tholians. The Tholians are not powerful enough to invade the Romulans and hold off the Klingons at the same time.
2) Why would they want to let a race that can breed like the Seltorians do, start to infest their territory knowing they will have to push them out at a later date? This brings us to point three.
3) Once the Seltorians are settled and have begun to dig in, all they need to do is get recognition from the Federation for protection from the Romulans. Because strategically having another race separate the Romulans from the Klingons is good for the Federation. Also having the Romulan Empire reduced is also good for the Federation. So the Federation will support the Seltorians probably requiring the Seltorians to roll back their attacks on the Tholians. But the Seltorians can always renege on that once they have built up enough forces to crush the Tholians.

I think the best bet is the extra galactic base where the Seltorians learn to modify the shield cracker / Web breaker to create temporary breaches in the galactic barrier to raid and attack the Tholians. This won’t need to change the F&E map, and allows only the Seltorians to move in and out of the galactic barrier.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

There are many small star clusters orbiting our galaxy. The LMC and GMC are just two of the largest ones.

Still, I'm for letting them just die out. It makes sense in the SFU for a few races to do that. A few have and the Selts are a modern case. We should not bring back all the races. It's more interesting that way...to me.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:52 am: Edit

Jim,

You have some good points (particularly the breeding capacity of the Selts) but I still think they could settle there. You have to consider the situation at the time. The Roms are broke. Of all the races in the GW, they fared the worst. They tried to eliminate the Tholians, and failed. With the arrival of the 312th, the Tholians are actually in a much better position than they were before. Would the Romulans be willing to be that the Tholians wouldn't be pissed enough to come and attack? I doubt it. And, given the state of relations between the Roms and Klingons after the war, I don't think they would ask for or expect any help. They have to go somewhere...and they'll want to go where they can remain close to the Tholians. That doesn't leave many options. The Klingons wouldn't take them, no would the Federation. The Romulans would be the only ones with a reason to cooperate.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 11:03 am: Edit

Here is a thought. If the Selts settled a planet they might do so in deep southern Rom space un-noticed. The Romulans are being conquered by the ISC then slapped hard by the Andros all on top of a Rovolutionary war after the GW.

However, given Operation Unity I think it more likely that the Romulans would seek the Tholians help is eliminating the Seltorians from their space (after short talks where the Selts refuse to be a subject race confined to their planet with no space faring ability). The Selts would seek Federation assistance and the Feds might offer menial help but ultimatly they will state that "If only they had settled in the NZ things would be different but we cannot reach you with out interstellar war and we cannot go there."

And there you go, a nice mini-war for the X2 era.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Heh. Tholians with plasma torpedoes!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Well, you didn't see that from Operation Unity where the Tholians fought along side every race that uses plasmas so I doubt you'd see that or any exchange of technology. But with a FHK sitting behind your web you can pretty much say, "Fine, break my web. Come on in!"

How about this route:

Y186: It was actually two groups of Seltorians that fled the Echelon of Judgment in two directions. The main military forces fled to the Klingons where they were destroyed by their once trusted allies. The other consisted primarily of support ships and escorts. When the Klingons betrayed the Seltorians a signal was beamed out and received by the fleeing support group. This Seltorian Line Support Group "Life Wind C"(SLSG-LWC) carried several hatchlings that could be queens and hundreds of worker and several would-be Rams. Knowing they had been betrayed they skirted Federation space towards Romulan space (the Tholians other enemy). Once they reached Romulan space they traveled slowly and quietly through the devastated regions between Romulan bases and eventually settled in Sector 4019 in Y192. (The Galactic Energy Barrier could be seen faintly in their night sky) This resettlement system was known as System Prime.

There they quickly began to breed a sizable population, being careful not to exhibit any unusual energy emissions that might give away their position against the normal Galactic Barrier background noise.

Unable to build a real ship yard at first, the Neo-Selts planned a new military paradigm for them selves. In short order they had reached out to form settlements in six nearby systems by Y198. All travel was with Non-Tactical Warp even though they had vessels that could use full warp. This was time consuming but much quieter.

In Y196 a small ground based (actually underwater) ship yard capable of building Fast Patrol Ship sized hulls was put on line and over the years hundreds of these units were built. Every support vessel they had started with was converted to carry at least some PF and several carried two flotillas. Fighters were also produced on a massive scale and what was once a handful of large and small cargo freighters suddenly became fully capable Space Control Ships.

Additionally, the Neo-Selts were the only race to ever have built Heavy versions of Fast Patrol ships. Like bombers these could only operate from planets and had to be shipped as parts from System Prime to the outlaying settlements and assembled on site.

Once the Seltorians had built a defendable network of star systems they began to build a real base at System Prime in Y206 and a real ship yard that would be capable of building Destroyers and smaller vessels. And this was the beginning of their downfall.

Galactic events had prevented the Romulans from keeping track of their Southern Sectors for a long time and in the Fall of Y206 a Survey vessel picked up a strange reading from a small system in Sector 4019. It was never heard from again. Some weeks later a cruiser was sent to investigate. It warped into the Neo-Selt Fifth Development Settlement only to be pounced upon two full Flotillas of HPF. Heavily Damaged in the initial strike the Romulan Captain quickly saw he was no match for this new enemy and disengaged (and the HPF could not pursue). The Neo-Selts had been discovered.

A small fleet was initially dispatched in January of Y207 to handle this new threat but what was found was several star systems jamb packed with Planetary Defense Units and swarms of various attrition units. The Romulans were hard pressed to carry out a siege at this time and a special envoy was dispatched to the Tholians informing them of the situation along with a request for "Partnership in Eradicating the New Seltorian Threat". The Romulans were prepared to state a case building on the cooperation during Operation Unity but found the Tholians asking two questions.

"You will allow us into your space for this?"

"Yes"

"Coordinates, please?"

Several check points were set up along the Galactic rim and the Tholians path was a straight line to sector 3919 where a supply yard in open space was established. The Romulans would not allow the establishment of a base in their territory (knowing how hard it can be to remove the Tholians once they are established) and the supply yard was continually guarded to prevent any such thing. In the Fall of Y207 the assault of the Seltorian Resettlement sector 4019 began with a two pronged pincer attack involving two Romulan fleets and the Tholian Fleet.

The smaller of the Two Romulan fleets was to simply hold sector 4018 and prevent any escape. The Romulan main body attacked from sector 4119 while the Tholians attacked from sector 3919.

By the early Fall of Y208, 48 PDUs and all six Development Settlements had been destroyed. Calls went out to the Federation for help but they were unanswered. The planets were thoroughly devastated rather than assaulted on the ground. At first ground assaults were conducted but the waves of Seltorians on the ground proved impossible to overcome. "We will blast them back to larva then," said Admiral T'Kohlic.

The Tholians wanted to set up permanent webs around each settlement to prevent any possible escape by the Neo-Selts but the Romulans refused. The Romulans in turn did set up monitoring systems around each Settlement and would assign a permanent patrol to respond to any sign of Neo-Selt activity.

In the Spring of Y209 the assault on System Prime began and the Neo-Selts fought with more tenacity and skill than ever before. Their one and only Cruiser destroyed two Tholian destroyers one her way to oblivion and was the last Neo-Selt starship to go down despite the presence of technologically superior vessels (only very few Second Generation X-Ships were used. The Romulan and Tholian fleets consisted primarily of GW era ships lead by First Generation X-Ships in squadrons. The Flagships were, of course, X2.)

The Main Settlement Planet in System Prime was so devastated by the Tholians that it no longer contained an atmosphere. By the Fall of Y209 the Tholians had packed up their belongings and returned to Tholia and many great victory celebrations. Both the Romulans and Tholians would celebrate...but not for long.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Thoughts?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Loren,

I like some of your ideas, but not this one, I'm afraid. For one thing, Operation Unity not withstanding, the Romulan participation in Operation Nutcracker would be a huge hindrance to Tholian/Romulan cooperation. Did the Tholians and Romulans even cooperate directly in Unity? IIRC (and I don't have my books handy so I may be mistaken here) the Galactics took 3 different routes to the LMC and the Romulans were on a different route than the Tholians.

Also, you haven't adequately explained why the Romulans need Tholian help to destroy the remnants of the Selts. The Romulans may have been badly hurt by the Civil War, followed by the ISC, followed by the Andros, but they are still a major race and the Tholians are still a minor one, though a minor race with some really cool technology. But that technology is less useful against the Selts than against some other races. If the Romulans found a Selt enclave in their space in the time frame you suggest, I think they both could and would muster the forces to crush it themselves rather than invite a former enemy who likely still has a big grudge against them to help out.

To my way of thinking, a Romulan/Seltorian alliance (or perhaps the Romulans "looking the other way" while the Selts prepare operations against the Tholians) just makes much more sense than a Romulan/Tholian alliance.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

The Romulans also lost Remus and are hurt in a very big way. They still have a far more hated foe in the Gorns although they also fought together in OpU.

No, my logic is that the Romulans want to extend an Olive branch to the Tholians so they don't have to worry about them in the future. The Seltorians cannot be allowed to stay and they, in their paranoia, destroyed the first ship and attacked the second in order to try and stay hidden. This shows the Romulans that the Selts are not their friends. Also, the Tholians are not the Romulans hated foe. They participated in OpNut for tactical reasons that were pertinent to the General War. Other than that the Romulans have no specific reasons to hate the Tholians.

OTOH, the Tholians would have a grudge against the Romulans but would never ever attack them for about a million reasons.

The last reason the Romulans reach out to the Tholians is to save money and resources. They know the Tholians seriously want the Selts gone for good. There is a foundation of cooperation (tenuous) to build on and why should the Romulans spend more lives and resources on this issue when the Tholians can and will spend some.

Remember, the Tholians would take great offense to a Rom/Selt alliance and would make the boarder even more stressful. The Selts breed fast and have a history of overthrowing their masters (and the Romulans would insist on being the Masters no doubt about it!). The Romulans would not be interested in giving up space either. The Seltorians would not trust Galactics anymore and so are trying to carve out their own enclave in space where they believe the owners aren't prepared to expel them once they are strong enough.

Further more the Romulans would not be interested in taking out the Tholians. Remember the Klingons were at one time interested in taking out the Romulans. The Tholians provide a buffer. They are also not interested in a new war that would no doubt involve the Federation and invite an attack from the North. Therefore there is no reason for the Romulans to be interested in working with the Selts. They don't need them or want them for the same reasons the Klingons didn't.

SO, by going to the Tholians they spend less resources taking out a potentially hazardous group of invaders and help mend relations and improve security on that small Rom/Tholian border; Perfect Romulan logic, IMO.

This does still bring back the Selts and a few cool variations and a small war for X2.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Hmmmm ... a thought: could the post-GW Seltorian question be one of the factors contributing to the Romulan Empire / Romulan Republic split? The timing is about right.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 07:08 pm: Edit

Didn't the Seltorians get wiped out after the Romulan Civil War? Or am I not remembering the timing correctly?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Yup, the Romulan Civil war begins in Y185 and the Selts are betrayed by the Klingons in Y186.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Loren
I like your scenerio best.I don't think the idea of Tholian-Romulan cooperation in that situation is that far fetched (In fact since the Tholians always practiced a military policy of "Lets you and him fight!" I rather think it would appeal to their sense of irony-which is almost as keen as their sense of punctuality). My sense of the Romulan-Tholian dynamic was that both regarded the other as a worthy opponent with no real axe to grind save an unfortunate accident of fate that placed them in their relative positions.

Also just as a player I rather like the idea of plasma and cloaked fleets side by side with web casting fleets. Would make for a fascinating campaign almost as interesting and challenging as Operation Nutcracker. The coordination of tactics makes for a fascinating Battle Lab problem.

Perhaps the Seltorians laid their hands on some X-tech via the Orions. Or...given that the Seltorians breed so fast is it so hard to imagine that if they decided to treble the number of sentients working on military R&D they wouldn't show results? What if they increased it by an order of magnitude? Remember the Seltorians are on a grand jihad and everything boils down to killing Tholians. As a certain WWII British PM said "A fanatic is someone who can not change his mind and will not change the subject." Aptly describing the Seltorians.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Part of the idea in my mind was to also present a test to the X-ship vs attritian thing. So I figured the Neo-Selts would go all out for attritian.

Also, everyone has wanted HPF's to be real. Here's an opertunity to have them for a bit. It fits logically in this case, IMO.

I was also condsidering the F&E value. It would be a small easy to run senario and possibly a very fun long play SFB campaign.

It also doesn't rely on the full developement of X2 to be designed.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 09:14 pm: Edit

Well, I still think a Romulan/Seltorian alliance makes a whole lot more sense. There's potentially a large payoff for the Romulams, but with very little potential downside. The Selts will keep the Tholians busy, allowing the Romulams to turn their attention to other matters. The Selts have no interest in attacking the Romulans themselves, but even if they did, the Romulans could crush them since the Selts don't have the anti-plasma capabilities that the Tholians do.

And who knows, the Selts with X-tech (or SC2 ships - who's to say there's not an improved version of the Hive Ship, not yet seen in this galaxy, set up to produce Capitol Ships) might even win. If they did, the Romulans, as the Selts allies and suppliers, would be in the best position to profit from this. (I don't think they would win, by the way. I merely say "If they did...".)

P.S. Loren - not everyone "has wanted HPFs to be real." For my part, I very much like PFs but would just as soon the HPFs had never been published. I just don't like them. Given that they are published, I would prefer they remain "Stellar Shadows" and never be made real. But I may well be in the minority on that.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Of course, it's never ever happened before that SFB fans have disagreed about their visions of the SFU in areas where SVC has not made a definitive ruling...