Archive through December 02, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 Seltorians: Archive through December 02, 2004
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

I don't think the Romulans would support or challenge the Selts. As long as they stayed in their unoccupied system and solely harassed the Tholians they can stay as long as they want. Being allied with them posts a number of dangers, as the Klingons learned.

Now if a Rom-Selt alliance allowed the Roms access to web-breaker tech I could be persuaded to change my mind.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:16 pm: Edit

The problem anybody has hosting the Selts is how verdammit fast they can build up an army.

The worst thing for everybody is if the Seltorans actually got what they wanted.

Who here thinks they'd just pull up stakes and go home if the Holdfast gets destroyed?


[crickets]

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:33 pm: Edit

John,

Actually, I think they might well pull up stakes if they destroyed the Holdfast, though I don't know, of course.

And building a huge army isn't that big a deal unless you can also build the fleet to get them somewhere useful. (Obviously I'm not talking about defensive purposes here. I'm talking about the Selts trying to conquer more of Romulan space than the Romulans might be willing to allow them for their anti-Tholian vendetta.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:42 pm: Edit

That is so not how the Romulans think, I believe. I assisted in GR to a degree and am privy to much that is Romulan. I don't think that they would tolerate anybody occupying their space. Additionally the Roms don't have an axe to grind with the Tholians. The Klingons do and they saw fit to destroy the Selts.

The Romulans would see the Selts as a threat (heck, I would too).

It takes man power to build fleets. They've got that in droves. They are extra galactic and pose a threat to the entire galaxy.

Pick up stakes? Who knows, maybe but that's not what the Romulan would think they will do. No, these are practiced Galactic conquers in their view. As such they pose a serious threat.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 11:11 pm: Edit

The Selt ability to breed en masse suits them extremely well to attrition units as well.

If the second round of Selts were smart, all their ships would end up decked out like Lyran ships with major capships as PFTs (or perhaps carriers).

Given that they can crank out hardware on an assembly line and can practically crank out crew to go with it, I can see anybody get leery of giving the selts a foothold.

I would expect that had something to do with why the Klinks called in the Orkin man.

Which means any return of the Selts could well be on less-than invited terms, which means they'd hole up wherever they could get a good infestation going.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Maybe this, maybe that. Do we want the Selts back in X2?

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Personally, I think the Klinks had always planned to give the Seltorians the boot. The Klingons were happy to sit back and watch the Seltorians annoy the Tholians. They never expected the Seltorians to be able to do anything significant; if they had, through some miracle, the Klingons would just send in a battle fleet and wipe out the weakened survivors of both sides. The Klingons could have built the Seltorians up into a lasting power, but that would have taken more work than just sealing off the Tholian border, and the Klingons generally aren't interested in subsidizing the creation of completely independent governments. (And as others have noted, they probably weren't interested in yet another fractious subject race.)

Anyway. I like the idea of X2 Seltorians being all about the attrition units. Maybe they could be X2's Hydrans, only with PFs instead of fighters.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 11:42 pm: Edit

If the Seltorians have the ability to routinely/freely cross the galactic barrier, WYN space works just as well as extragalactic globular clusters. Extragalactic clusters are at least as far from Tholian space as the WYN cluster. Cross the barrier from WYN space, travel to Tholian space with the barrier between you and the galactic powers, cross in and raid the Tholians, cross back out and fly back.

WYN space makes secnarios other than Selt-Tholian plausible, with Kzintis, Lyrans, Klingons, and eventually Xorks all reasonable opponents. Also, it lets the Seltorians operate fighters. While they could develop their own non-drone fighters to replace the Z-YC design, they wouldn't have pilots for them. The WYN can provide both drones and pilots.

Selts as Romulan allies mean fewer "historical" racial matchups, but allows fighting the Tholians without barrier-crossing tech. The Selts probably wind up building Romulan fighters piloted by Romulans in that case. I don't think, however, the Romulans are that anti-Tholian or would be that sanguine about Selts breeding in their space.

Surviving in-Galaxy Seltorian remnants are, IMO, pretty clearly excluded by the history. Especially ones able to set up shipbuilding, even on the PF level -- without the Hive Ship, they don't have the tools to build the tools. And why would the Tholians send a fleet out of the Holdfast to take care of a problem for the Romulans that can never exceed an annoyance for the Tholians? PFs, fighters, and freighters can't carry web breakers (E15.13); the Tholians can tell the Romulans, "Let's you and him fight" from behind the saftey of the web. Furthermore, would the Tholians really trust the Romulans not to jump your damaged fleet, fresh from fighting Selts, as it tries to get back to the Holdfast?

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

Some comments on above posts:

First, the Klingons may have had plans to "adopt" the Seltorians as a new subject race.

I could argue that they had already made that decision. I do agree that the Selts ability to expand rapidly both in population and fleet size may have been a factor, but the fact remains that the Selts were there to attack the Tholians, and only the Tholians. I do not recall any mention that the Selts attacked the Klingons at any point. The Selts were attacking the Tholians, who the Klingons wanted dead. As long as their dyson sphere was intact, I have to think that the Klingons had no reason to get rid of the Selts.

I do feel that the historical reason given for the Selts extermination doesn't hold up. It does not make sense from the Klingon viewpoint -- why stop the Selts from attacking the Tholians at ANY point in time? The only reason I can think of is that the Tholian dyson sphere had been destroyed, and that hadn't happened.

Second, one factor that lead to the Selts destruction was their biology. Selts need queens to breed new Selts. Kill off the queens, and the Selt race ceases to be a problem within a few years ... decades at most. This means that the Selts, like all bug species, protects its queens to the max. However many queens the Selts had, they had to be on the same world, if not on the hive ship.

This makes destroying the Selts an easy task for the Klingons. A surprise attack on two or three locations, and *poof* the bugs are eliminated as a species. Pulling the trigger on the Selts would thus have been an easy task, but apparently it did happen.

Why would the Klingons have done this if the points I make above in this post are valid?

The only reason I can think of is that there was a screw-up, or some deliberate act by someone contrary to official Klingon policy. In other words, the Selts got killed off without the blessing of the military command structure.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 12:50 am: Edit

Loren,

If the Romulans believe they are ultimately destined to conquer the galaxy, they do have an axe to grind with the Tholians. They have an axe to grind with everyone who isn't Romulan.

The Tholians, though a minor race, have a technology that is particularly effective against races that depend very heavily on seeking weapons (and also voids cloak). The Romulans would suffer an utterly disproportionate casualty level in trying to conquer the Holdfast. By allying with the Seltorians (the alliance to be repudiated when and if it is no longer useful) the Romulans would have a better chance of defeating the Tholians without suffering unacceptable casualty levels.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 01:14 am: Edit

Gary:

It wasn't the Klingons who did the most damage to the Seltorians, it was the ISC. Most of the Seltorians' combat power was destroyed trying and failing to stop the ISC from blowing up the Hive Ship. All the Klingons did was finish them off.

From the Klingon perspective, the Seltorians stopping being an asset the instant they lost their Hive Ship, most of their warships, and the planet that the Klingons gave them. The Seltorians no longer had a base, the forces to pose a threat to the Tholians, or any hope of recovering without assistance. This kind of assistance was something that the Klingons could not afford. It was one thing to keep the Seltorians around while they had their own shipyard, it is another to build their ships for them using resources that could be used for the Empire's own fleet.

So, when the Seltorians changed from being an asset to being a liability, a decision was made to eliminate them.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 09:28 am: Edit

Mini-campaigns are good.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

Numbering added for clearity.

Quote:

[1]Surviving in-Galaxy Seltorian remnants are, IMO, pretty clearly excluded by the history. Especially ones able to set up shipbuilding, even on the PF level -- without the Hive Ship, they don't have the tools to build the tools. [2] And why would the Tholians send a fleet out of the Holdfast to take care of a problem for the Romulans that can never exceed an annoyance for the Tholians? [3]PFs, fighters, and freighters can't carry web breakers (E15.13); the Tholians can tell the Romulans, "Let's you and him fight" from behind the saftey of the web. [4]Furthermore, would the Tholians really trust the Romulans not to jump your damaged fleet, fresh from fighting Selts, as it tries to get back to the Holdfast?



1) I was suggesting that they escaped with supply/support units and escorts. Then I hid them on a planet for several years. PF building would certainly be in their grasp. The tools to build tools are there on the repair ships and cargo ships and escorts. I figure the Neo-Selt fleet would have been 1xCA, 1xDD, 3xFF, 2xF-L, 5x F-S, and maybe a Repair Tug. The freighters would be near full of supplies for battle front support.

2) To erradicate the remaining Selts. They know above all other what happens when you let the Selts get a foothold somewhere and then leave them alone. Above all the Selts are the nemisis of the Tholians and must be totally erraticated from the Galaxy.

3)In my suggestion for the Neo-Selt history I stated that they were discovered when they were beginning their first real shipyard. At the begining neither the Romulans or Tholians knew exactly what capabilities the Neo-Selts had. Note that I placed all of their PF and FIghter production facilities on the planets and in most cases under water. With just a couple more years their ship yard would have been producing FF's and maybe DD's, all designed to carry PF's and fighters.

4) It would be difficult to trust the Romulans at all but there are a few things to consider. The Romulans are ill prepared for war and have a particularly difficult time dealing with Tholians. The entire reason the Romulans partner up with the Tholians is to save on resources and lives. Attacking the Tholians after the Selts are eliminated is contrary to this goal. It also is contrary to the attempt to releive stress on their southern border. The Romulans are in a very stretched out situation. They have a new HUGE border with the ISC that needs a serious amount of support. The Gorn border is in tatters. If the Romulans can play the political nice card with the Feds and Tholians then they can focus their resources where the more serious threats are.

Also, I have no doubt that the Tholians quickly made battle plans to attack the Romulan bases on their border should the Anti-Selt fleet be betrayed. Such an attack would require the Romulans to pull forces from around the area to defend the bases. This would be primarilly the forces attacking the Tholian fleet. In other words, the Tholian fleet is realatively safe because the Tholians could create a mess the Romulans don't want (for now).

Remember, the Romulans kill two birds with one stone here. The lessen tention on their southern border and get rid of an infestation problem.

ALAN TREVOR: Indeed, the Romulans have an axe to grind with everyone due to their phylosophy but they grind it with political style. The Romulans have no problem making nice if it serves their needs. They have much bigger problems than the Tholians (who everyone knows by this point just want to be left alone and only the Klingons have a serious problem with them because they settled in their space). Making nice with them eases tentions and allow them to focus resources elsewere.

Hence, eliminating the Neo-Selts also reduces long term resource needs. The Romulans do not have resources to spare (which the Selts are consuming) and will not trust the Neo-Selts to just be good allies. They will have to set up a border and patrols and bases and etc. All in theri own space. The only way the Romulans would let them be is if they are confined on their planet and pay tribute to the Empire. Not something the Selts would agree to.

Sorry for the super long post. Ick.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 11:03 am: Edit

I liked the suggestion that a new Hive ship arrives Y200 from a closer galaxy upon the completion of its mission in that galaxy. There should be no problem setting up shop in the now much wider neutral zones. Remember, its not Romulan space if they don't control it.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Tos

How many F&E hexes are these neutral zones at this time frame?

The Selts could also settle in one of the off-map survey areas.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 03:24 pm: Edit

I have another idea. (Smart ass mode on.)

The Seltorians meet up with the last of the Carnivons and form the Seltivons! With the Bugbear class dreadnought.

(Smart ass mode off).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Hee, hee.

Joseph: Figure five to six F&E hexes across. Indeed, the hex I figure that the Seltorians settled in would have NOT been under Romulan control at the time they settled.

HOWEVER, they knew it used to be Romulan territory and would know the Roms would eventually come back (hence the massive buildup of PDU's) and the quiet behavior and the choice of using a planet that would have the energy barrier as background cover (which would only work for very long ranged scans, I figure.)

Off-Map Survey areas are east of the Hydrans and Lyrans, and North of the Kzinti and Federation. I don't know how they would reach those areas as they would have to go such a long long way.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Digging out the F&E map:
The Selts could set up shop in 3216, an original Y168 neutral zone hex claimed by no power while still being within striking distance of Tholia.

I figure this hex is about 12 F&E hexes from Romulan defended space at the height of the Andro War, Y197. Maybe 6-7 hexes from Fed controlled space. Three hexes from Tholian space.

Three hexes from both the Fed and Rom border of Y185. Nobody has a claim on this backwater system, perfect for the Selts.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:00 am: Edit

I really dont see the NZs being more than 2 hexes across,and even that for a short time, as the ISC are beaten off very quickly.

The various race's NZs will reform very quickly between the Feds and the Kzin/Klingon/Gorn/Tholian. These would go back to the prewar zones very quickly.

The Lyran/Hydran/Klingon zones would probably be wider, and the Kzin/Lyran/Klingon zones might also be smaller.

The Roms of course will be off by themselves for a long time, so those could be three deep maybe.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:30 am: Edit

CFant, I wasn't making those totals up.

The F&E map clearly shows the post war border with NZ 5+ hexes wide. That was cira Y185, prior to the Andro war. During the Andro war things got worse, not better.

During the Andro war most Empires were reduced to a region of approximately 12 hexes total. This is defined in the R-section description of Andros.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 02:15 am: Edit

The wide NZs date to the Commander's Edition Supplement #2; they aren't on the maps included with recent versions of F&E and the mention of them in the CL#23 X-ship errata seems to me to suggest they aren't canon anymore.

Loren -- you mentioned Neo-Seltorian fighter production facilities.

R15.20 establishes Seltorians can't fly them -- "The Klingons provided . . . the pilots as well (since Seltorian workers were not able to handle the fast three-dimensional combat regime of fighters)." With no Seltorian pilots, no allied-race pilots, and no sentient native race to recruit as pilots (R4.1 establishes that Romulan space has no non-Romulan races), the Seltorians aren't likely to be able to make use of fighters.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 03:17 am: Edit

Um ... FYI, minor comment re the above:

That R4.1 reference is out-of-date as there are a few supressed races within Romulan Space; these will be in GURPS ROMULANS early next year. None of these races have interstellar flight, nor do the Roms use them for anything (nor does anyone else), so R15.20 is still valid as far as the Supressed Races go.

You are, however, not considering that the Selts may possibly have hired members of a Pirate Cartel to fly their fighters. Not likely, not canon at this point, but still possible and worth considering.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 09:15 am: Edit

Tis true that my F&E maps are a bit out of date. I hadn't noticed before but the Map I have been referencing is copyright 1986. I don't think I own a more recent map.

I've read the CL#23 reference several times and I don't find it compels me to believe one way or the other on the neutral zone issue. We know the ISC imposed large neutral zones. We know the Andros left the outer clusters undefended.

If the 1986 F&E map is discredited then we don’t know where the races redrew the borders of the General War. I’m of the opinion that this doesn’t particularly matter since the Andros upset the apple cart making any agreed upon border merely a pipe dream.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 09:28 am: Edit

Not really, there is still a line in space that one cannot cross without going to war with a neighbor, Andro or no.

The General War ended with just about the same lines in space that it began with.

The ISC widend that to up to 4 hexes in each empire (8 across), but as they were forced to leave the borders would go back to regular.

The biggest change to the map at this time period would be that the LDR space is back to being part of the Lyran empire.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:55 am: Edit

Neo-Selt Fighters. Developed on their own their problems might have been overcome. There could also be a few special rules (such as very poor Dog Fight ratings). These will be entirely new fighter designs so the situation is open.

(BTW: Work might have started long before they had to run for their lives. Just never completed before the Klingons betrayed them.)

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation