(GJD23.9) The Incredible Shrinking Expanding Sphere Generator

(GJD23.91) GENERAL: The ISESG is an enhancement to the ESG designed for increased flexibility and improved operation in fleets. It allows the generating ship to vary the radius of an already-generated ESG field within certain limits.
(GJD23.911) The ESG field is declared and generated as normal, with an assigned maximum radius (from 0 to 3 hexes in the usual way). The owning player decides the actual radius with which the field will be created, which may be equal to or less than its maximum radius.
(GJD23.912) On any subsequent impulse, the generating ship can increase or decrease the radius of the field by 1 hex. This change is announced in the Operate ESG segment (6B6) and happens in the Movement segment of the following impulse (6A2).
(GJD23.9121) The field shrinks or expands at the exact same moment that the generating ship moves; collisions are determined in the usual way at that point. (GJD23.913) The radius of the ESG field cannot be increased to more than its 'maximum' radius.
(GJD23.914) The strength of the ESG field does not change when its radius is altered.
(GJD23.915) If two fields are generated by the same ship, attempting to to pass one through the other will damage both as though the two fields had collided.
(GJD23.915) The ISESG requires no extra power to operate.

(GJD23.92) REFIT: The ISESG is a refit available on all ships from Y177. It costs 2 points per ESG and is applied to all ESGs at the same time. It requires the capacitor refit.

(GJD23.93) TACINTEL: An ISESG field can be discriminated from a normal ESG field only when it changes size.

(GJD23.94) REPAIR: An ISESG costs 20 points to repair; it can be hastily repaired as an ESG (with or without capacitor).

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It's perhaps not abundantly useful as written, though it would certainly help in situations of limited maneuver such as asteroid fields, fleet actions or when the Lyran gets tractored.

Here's an enhancement that would improve the ISESG a bit:

(GJD23.9131) The field can be generated in a very tight sphere around the ship (considered to be radius -1). This will not interact with any other objects in the hex, except that it blocks any fighter, drone or shuttle launches or landing on the generating ship. It is inside the ship's shields and provides no protection against seeking weapon impact or hellbore fire.


Here's an enhancement that would improve it a lot at the cost of extra nasty maths when the fractions turn up:

(GJD23.914Alternate) The strength of the field is recalculated as the radius changes, based on the proportion of the field depleted by damage. For example, a 5-energy radius-3 field has a strength of 15. If it hit a shuttle and was reduced to 9, this would correspond to 3 energy, so strength 10 at radius 2, 11 at 1 and 12 at 0.


Comments?

at least it's not yet another DF ESG or photon enhancement...

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 09:12 am: Edit

Before I could really comment, I'd have to play it, but here's my two cents worth.

First, you've done a good job outlining the rule and explaining how it works. Kudos for a well writting rule.

Second, if I were going to allow this in play, I'd want something besides a BPV and repair cost increase...I'd think some sort of power cost to make the field shrink/expand is called for.

Third, just looking, I can see a number of advantages to having this, particularly against the Kzinti. If you have your field up at say, radius 2, and then expand it suddenly to catch some fighters off guard, this could be really nasty. It's almost like a movement "lunge" that lets you ram much more effectively, for obvious reasons.

All in all, not a bad idea; I'd have to play it to really evaluate it, but I think it has promise, provided some energy cost is required to change the field. Have you played this yet, and tried it? Might make a good 2X technology.

By John Trauger (Vorlon) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 02:06 pm: Edit

On (GJD23.914Alternate)

A simpler rule than pro-rating the energy expended when an ESG deals damage is to simply say the damage stays constant even as the radius varies, as long as there is still some strength left in the field. At any time when the field strength reaches 0, whether from damage or resizing, the ESG is down. That gives some advantage for collapsing the field and a disadvantage for expanding it.

It also avoids the nasty math when a field does damage that doesn't divide into whole numbers, especially when the field interacts at two or more different radii.

Thus, in the example, A 5-pt field at Rad:3 kills a shuttle, drops to 9. At 3/2/1/0 the remaining strength is 9/11/12/14. If the field drops down to R:2 and stops a Type I drone and another shuttle (10 pts damage), it would pop like a soap bubble if the player re-expanded it out to R:3 because its strength would drop to -1.

This concept adds an interesting but not unbalancing capability to the ESG becaus eit does not change the essential dynamics of dealing with an ESG armed ship.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 12:14 am: Edit

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Quote:

(GJD23.914) The strength of the ESG field does not change when its radius is altered.

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Quote:

(GJD23.914) The strength of the ESG field does not change when its radius is contracted.
If the Sphere is expanded then the strength is reduced based on the amount of power placed into the ESG and differing Radii.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 12:25 am: Edit

I can't remember the preamble.

Is the ESG built on Tractor beam technology?

If so we could get the NEED extra power to operate thing happening by:-

Having the Tractor Beam ( powered ), tractor the ESG and contract or exspand it ( rather like a potter, exspanding or contration the neck of a pot on his wheel).


The NBPV increase would be for both a plyable ESG and an altered Tractor beam.


Although there is a danger in that, people will demand that they be able the change the "radius" of their tractor on any impluse not just impulse 1 as it is now.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 09:45 am: Edit

MJC - The strength of the field, regardless of radius, is based on its 'maximum' radius at creation. So if you put 5 power into it and set a max radius of 2, it has a strength of 17. You cannot then set it to 3.

It has nothing to do with tractors, AFAIK, and I can't see why it should. An Expanding Sphere Generator ought to be able to Generate an Expanding Sphere, no?


I considered Vorlon's simplification, but decided that the physics perhaps didn't support it. It is clean and simple, of course.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

I'm not much for the main body of the rule BUT the last piece is GREAT. The tight protective field(-1 radius). This makes a lot of sence! But may I suggest that it would be outside the shields but so close that it couldnot be used to ram anything. So you could not launch shuttles but you would be protected from anything hitting the ship (seaking weapons and Hellbores). A primary benifit would be you could have mutiple ESG armed ships in the same hex all sporting close proximity ESGs(CP-ESG). This little rule would greatly enhance the Lyran Fleets initial maneuverablity.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 09:24 pm: Edit

J.D.:


A) Now that I reread it, I see it.

B) Assuming the ESG is made of highly charged subatomic particals and the Tractor beam creates an electro magetic feilds, there should be a "real world" interaction between the two.

But since the preamble doesn't outline the substance of the ESG, there is no way to say.

B2)

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Quote:

An Expanding Sphere Generator ought to be able to Generate an Expanding Sphere, no?

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 09:43 pm: Edit

x6 multiplier would be cool but I was really thinking that the standard R0 would be fine. Against Hydrans I was thinking this ability would be used at longer ranges when closing and still have freedom of movement. In fact most of the R0 rules would apply. Just no ramming and no interaction with other ESGs. Fair trade. No changing of the nature of the ESG either. It would also protect agaist asteroids. Group your ships up in one hex and head on through. No need to designate a leader, though thats probably the thing to do anyway.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 10:03 pm: Edit

I like the -1 ESG radus as it is good solely for defence making it good for fleets and unnessasary for Duals and patrols. As a Seperate purchasable device, I agree it would work well. As it has limited uses they would not have it installed on every ship unless the ship was going into a fleet battle.

Thinking about installation they would probably have it installed much like a dummy panel over the ESG projectors, and be able to add and remove it quickly. I would also think it would count against the panel limits.

The Strength would probably be x5 or x6. Some implications are that one ship could generate the larger field and have all of the other ships inside the field still generate this one. Also Carriers and escorts would love this as you could launch fighters and then raise this without fear of damaging the fighters.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Thats right. After launch. Ken, you mentioned dummy pannels and that got me thinking that it could be an add on device that gets blown off the first time it is used as a normal ESG. Therefore not costing any extra BPV but balancing out some of the Lyran Fleet problems. Or maybe just 1/2 BPV per pannel. Could be installed at Basestations/Starbases or with a repair tug inbetween scenarios.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Jim, this is your baby, what do you think?

By the way, I love the title(Style). If this became a rule, I would insist that it be titled this way.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 01:43 am: Edit

I'ld like to see some other aspect to the weapon other than.

"Is really cool in fleet battles."

As few people play fleet battles and Fleet battles only weapons would therefor be, rarely worth the exspence of the paper they were printed on, neverlone the ink.

Hence the Increased multiplier for the smaller Radius.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 09:36 am: Edit

Jim D.

I like this as a way for Lyrans to coordinate their fleet movements (reducing ESG size, if they need to form up, increase it if they disperse). Plus it makes it a little more unpredictable, which is always good.

I'd suggest the following minor tweaks (short version - don't set max radius on generation, use version of alternate field strength based on current radius, costs power to change radius):

(GJD23.911/Revised) The ESG field is declared and generated as normal, with the owning player deciding what initial radius to set it at.

(GJD23.912/Revised) On any subsequent impulse, the generating ship can increase or decrease the radius of the field by 1 hex. This change is announced in the Operate ESG segment (6B6) and happens in the Movement segment of the following impulse (6A2). Once announced, the radius change can not be cancelled voluntarily.

(GJD23.913/Revised) The radius of the ESG field cannot be increased to more than 3.

(GJD23.914/Revised wording of GJD23.914 Alternate, as per John Trauger's post) The strength of the ESG field is as normal for its current radius and power used to generate, less any damage the field has taken. If the field is knocked down at a given radius, the field is knocked down completely, it can not be restored by reducing its radius. Likewise, if the ESG doesn't have enough strength left to exist at a given radius, it may not be expanded to that radius.

(GJD23.915/Revised) Changing the radius of the ESG requires 1 point of power drawn from the ESG capacitor. Power cannot be added to the capacitor while the ESG is in use. Therefore if a full 5 point ESG was generated, it could change radius twice, assuming that the ESG's capacitor was fully charged to 7 points initially.

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 09:38 am: Edit

Energy Cost suggestion: Almost all energy weapons require some kind of energy to change something...
1- One point of reserve power to change...
2- One point of reserve power to change one radii
ie 1 point to go from rad3 to rad2.
This would put a cap on the number of times the ship could change it...
Question: I don't see a mention of time between changes....would 8 impulses be appropriate?
Also: how about a rule allowing the ESG to stay up after destruction...say for 4 impulses...

By Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Overall I like except for -1 radius.

By Matthew J. Francois (Francois42) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 02:24 pm: Edit

This is great! Let's combine it with a never-miss photon and Speed 64 drones... and we're set!

Just kidding.

Truth be told, I like the basic idea, but I have a few suggestions:

1.) Eliminate the contraction, or put a severe penalty on the strength of the ESG if it is done. As it stands, it give the Lyran too much leeway... put out a R3 field, and as your manuvers show you that you'll be able to get a R1 ram... shrink it down to delay the damage but do more damage! I think being able to expand would greatly (in itself) increase the flexibility in fleet actions.

2.) The -1 radius idea, while intriguing, suffers from one problem: How does the field get past the generating unit's shields? If it goes from R0 (outside the shields) to R-1, wouldn't it impact the shields in between? Why do the Lyrans get to drop and raise shields in less time than the rest of us?

Nice proposal. It really cahnges the Lyran fleet dynamic, IMO. (And I'm sure the Klingons would appreciate it, too)

-Francois
francois@purdue.edu

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Jims plan is to have them inside the shields but I see no real need for that. Just outside the shields is basicly the same thing except that it will also protect the ship where as if it were inside the shields it would not do anything at all unless the shields were destroied. From a physical point, that much energy floating only meters from the hull would surely damage the ship and expose the crew to radiation risks.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 06:12 am: Edit

Maybe it'll attract hellbores but the damage generated strikes the sheilds instead of reducing the ESG damage?


The thing got to be outside the sheilds, even if only by a few metres or else it'll be completely useless until the sheilds have dropped!
A weapon that can't work until it's too late is a waste of space.


Now an ESG that spurts out damage ( area effect or huge damage ) once the sheild falls, that's different, BUT keeping the ESG behind the sheilds inorder to be a final line of defense against drones, is just really unworkable.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 11:04 am: Edit

I'd like to second Mark Russman's idea for a delay between radius changes. I think either 4 or 8 impulses would work, but which exactly would need to be determined by playtesting.

The radius -1 ESG just strikes me as sort of weird and of limited utility as Jim has stated it (under the shields to prevent boarding by shuttle).

Perhaps an alternate Close In ESG setting:

(Gxx23.9131) The ESG can be generated directly outside the ship's shields. The strength of the field is equivalent to 6 times the power used. At this setting, the ESG will block drones and shuttles targetted on the ship, as well as drones or shuttles launched by the ship. At this setting, the ESG will not damage any other ship except for ones directly docked to the generating ship. It will interact normally with an ESG generated by another ship.

(Gxx23.91311) Operating an ESG at such close proximity is dangerous to the generating ship. Every time the ESG is hit or hits a drone, shuttle, ship, or another ESG, it causes feedback damage equivalent to 1 point of damage on every shield facing of the generating ship. Damage that penetrates the shields is resolved as single separate volley from the direction of the downed shields.

(Gxx23.91312) The close in ESG interacts with hellbores differently than normal. Due to the restricted radius, the generating ship's ESG field is not automatically hit, instead the normal to hit procedure is used. If the ship is hit, the ESG takes damage as normal, but the implosion also forces the ESG into contact with the generating ship, causing feedback damage. Half the damage from the hellbore is inflicted on the ESG, the remainder is inflicted on the target ship using the normal hellbore damage procedure. If the damage is sufficient to knock down the ESG, then the left over damage is added to the feedback damage and is resolved as a single hellbore hit. If the ship is struck by multiple hellbores at the same time, resolve the ESG interaction for each one in turn until the ESG is knocked down.

By John Trauger (Vorlon) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Changing the ESG-hellbore interation is a BIG thing.

Changing the closest range an ESG can be generated at is a big change, even with a limitation attached.

Both of these are external to a shiftin-range ESG and should stand or fall as their own proposal.

I don't think limiting the ESG's ability to change its radius is that big a deal. How often does an ESG take partial damage as opposed damage sufficient to knock it down.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 01:17 pm: Edit

A -1 ESG need not actualy be only meters from the ship for these rules and it seems to me that a better range would be about 100 to 500 meters. This is a lot smaller than a range 0 (10,000 Km) and would still be too small for ships to use as ramming. (Ramming ships is not possible and I suspect that even comming within a few KM would be very dificult for two ships moving faster than light). 100 meters would be too tight for shuttles to launch and maneuver (but 500 might be debatable).

Stephen: The feed back rule is something I've been thinking about too. Though I'm thinking one point on every shield is a bit much. Maybe it doesn't cause a flux in the field but some of the explosion gets through since the ESG isn't a shield but a damage causing spheir. So, how about 1/4 damage strikes the facing shield. That way it will auto adjust to the weapon striking the field. Striking this field as you put it would become a useful tactic for the enemy. In other words, if I were sending drones to hit a -1 ESG a type 1 would do as much as a type 4. In some cases I would attack the field on purpose to hit into a down shield or any number of reasons you might want to hit the opposit shield. Hellbores should be handled differently, and I'll look that interaction up and comment later.

As for the "Useful in Fleets" thing. Thats where the ESG has most of its troubles. Frankly, I do think the SFB rules are well written and balanced with only very minor exceptions. I think the ESG really only needs a minor tweek like this. If we go and try to make a big change, well, it wont happen at this point. To me the -1 ESG could make a lot of sence.

Changing radious mid-turn is a BIG change and would really be dangerous in game. Not to mention the aditional accounting load.

However, one could say that while expirements on the IS-ESG failed it did turn out a useful device thats is able to generate a -1 ESG field.

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 03:01 pm: Edit

"Maybe it'll attract hellbores but the damage generated strikes the sheilds instead of reducing the ESG damage? "

Why?

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Hello again. Some thoughts:

1) Power to change the radius.

This seems a bit unnecessary but might be justified to implement the Vorlon rule (strength based on current radius minus damage done).

Taking it from reserve power is a bit much. It should come in the first instance from the ESG capacitor. At any range where you're playing about with the ESG, you have better things to do with that reserve, such as tractor.

Also 1 point per hex is an awful lot. Half a point or less is more realistic, or the thing will barely move.

2) Radius -1: The reason for having it inside the shields is to make it no protection from HBs. Just outside the shields won't help against drones, but will against HBs. The no-launch rule is just a minor irritation in exchange.

What I wanted to achieve with the radius -1 was to make the thing quiescent but active, so that it could be deployed quickly at the cost of using up its 32 impulses.

It's true that there's a bit of a funny regarding the ESG passing through the shields. IMHO this can be handwaved away; firing a phaser doesn't blow chunks out of your own shields either.

The main thing is to Keep It Fimple, Fool. So the more rules that get appended to it, the worse. As the ESG is a bit of a limp weapon in many ways, it can handle an upgrade without causing major problems.

Yes, the main effect of the rule (esp with r-1) is to help in fleet battles. IMHO, this is the main problem with ESGs in the GW, and the thing that the Lyran scientists would concentrate on fixing.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Ummm, why would a ESG just outside of the shields not help vs drones? By current rules, drones will strike a r0 ESG before doing damage.

I aggree that a r-1 ESG is like an overload on the ESG, so feedback is indicated. Also 1 pt to each shield per drone is TOO excessive. To use as an example, a shatterpack with 12 type-VI drones would do 24 pts of damage if not stopped but with this feedback rule would do a total of 84 points! (72 from feedback, 12 from drones that get though anyway) I think that a much simpler way is to say that if a r-1 ESG is hit, the feedback damage to the facing shield would be read off the (J3.31) Collateral Damage Chart. This way the Shatterpack in the above example would hit the r-1 power 5 (30 pts) ESG and destroy 6 of them doing 6 pts feedback and the be hit by the other 6 for 12 pts, total 18pts. (I suggest killing 2 with ph-3's and destroy the rest with the ESG.)

BUT, if you allow feedback, I think that you must allow for an offensive Ram. To make it somewhat fair, I would use a to hit roll like the moon collision table in (P2.231) based on the speed of one or both units.