A thought I had about Flash Cube Photons is that it could negate ECM but not with ECCM so no to hit bonus could be gained.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 12:04 am: Edit

Jeff, I would roll to hit and simply flashcube the cloaked ship on a hit.

If you have ever chewed through the cloak rules, you will know this isn't as useful as it seems. Even a T-bomb flashcube really just gives the ship an opportunity to roll for lock-on. It does not assure lock-on.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 05:41 am: Edit

MJC - just Reinf please (its actually less characters than S.S.R.). To me, SSR is an Omegan Weapon and GSR is meaningless.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

Hang on, MJC! We'll get you there buddy!

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Okay Jeff, I follow you now. That's a more involved method than my proposal but it's not a bad idea. With yours we'd have to add a table to the SSD whereas with mine we wouldn't. Mine's pretty straightforward but yours offers more "flavor." I'd suggest playtesting both.

Here's another question: would flashcube photons only apply to X2 or could lower tech use it as well? It's easy to explain it away as only X2 sensors/computers can home in on the prox burst but why not the other tech? Maybe the technique was discovered around Y205 and all ships can be refit with the requisite software. What do y'all think?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

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Quote:

If you want your XCC to have 2x24 photons plus all the other X2 goodies then show me the SSD. If we can keep the BPV in the 250 range then I don't see a problem with it.

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Quote:

Jeff, I would roll to hit and simply flashcube the cloaked ship on a hit.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 07:44 pm: Edit

I've got a nasty one in mind for the photon.

What if photons could fire in rapid succession during one impulse. This could be handled by allowing photons to be fired during each Hellbore firing step.

Man, that would be nasty!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I must not have read your proposal as close as I thought. I did not assume any aegis firing, and I did assume the prox would be fired during normal DF fire.

The "roll for lock-on" part of impulse procedure is where it is for a reason. it preserves the effectiveness of the cloak against flashcubing.

I wouldn't want to violate that order or the intent behind it by allowing a photon to flashcube a cloaked ship and then gettng later aegis steps to immidiately fire at it. That's obnoxious.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Here's some Brain storming.


Photon Chain Gun

The Photon torpedoe was completely replaced during the X2 period with a Photon Chain Gun. The Photon chain gun still fires through launch tubes but these launch tubes are longer and narrower than regular launch tubes such that regular Photon Torpedoes can not be launched through them.

Each Launch tube launches what a called Photon submunitions. Each subminition is armed with 1 point of warp power and shall inflict 2 points of damage when it strikes. A fractional ammount of warp power may be used to arm a fractional wahead. The fractional warhead may not fire. Any new warp power ( other than for holding ) that is applied to the Photon chain gun must be added to complete the fractional submunition first.

The Power is not all for the purpose of arming the subminbitions. Some of the power can be used to cool the launch tube ( by running the cooling systems some of the power can be used to energise the small thruster ports on the subminitions that cause the small warhead to be able to direct it'self in flict and thus strike targets at longer ranges. This creates two firing modes.

Short Fire mode.
The subminitions fire out to the target so long as the target is at a range of 8 hexes or less. The subminitions may be launched each impulse until there are no armed submunitions to launch.
Short fire mode may fire every impulse but is not obliged to.

Long Fire mode.
The subminitions direct their energy to the thrusters and thus cause the launch tube to over heat. A luanch tube can not fire the subminitions until it has cooled down but will cool down after one impulse meaning it can fire on the impulse after the impulse after it launched a long fire subminition.
Long mode fire can fire every second impulse from each launcher but is not obliged to.

The subminition can be fastloaded. Any fastloaded submunition must be fired under the short fire mode.

The submunitions can be held, the holding cost is 0.25 points of power per turn per subminition. Fractional submunition can be held for the same cost.


No more than 8 submunitions may be armed at any one time.

The Photon chain gun fires with the Photon to hit tables to a range of 30 hexes and does not fire in a proximity setting.


The idea of this firing mode is that the chruch power exists in that the ship ould use 15 POints of reserve warp power plus 4+4 arming to fire off 8 submunitions in long mode plus a further 15 submunitions fastloaded ( shot mode only ) for a maximum damage of 46 points ( spread over 30 impulses.

But that that crunch power is also taken away in that the target ship can turn away and bring a fresh sheild to bear before the shield falls.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Re: flashcube photon, the standard would fire the same impulse as the prox during the normal firing sequence. The effect lasts only for that impulse. As to it applying under AEGIS, I don't know. I'll have to think about that one.

MJC, your chain-gun photon almost sounds like a photon PPD. This one's "outside the box" for sure. Have to give it more thought. Maybe this would work better as a fighter weapon?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 09:30 pm: Edit

The Photon Chain Gun looks like an interesting idea. Not sure how it would work in practice. Or how the technobabble would look.

As to number of Submunitions, Is 8 the Total limit for the ship, or is it per launcher?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Yeah, I would say per launch at any one point in time, making larger numbers of of shots possible with reserve warp power.

Actually the 46 points of damage would be less effective than arming four Chain Gun Photons on an XCA with 4+4 arming and then puting 4 reservw into Chain Gun A, 4 into B, 4 into C and 3 into D.

Also note that this means from R2-30 the weapon could fire 16 points of damage ( over a period of 15 impulses ).


Hmmm...I wonder if short mode will allow the weapon to fire in the R0-1 bracket???

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 10:23 pm: Edit


I realize, Orman, you've been playing this game for quite some time as well. Please don't think I'm trying to say I'm superior or anything like that. I just want you to know I'm not a newbie.

I would ask you to consider how many times a few more points in that big alpha strike would have won you the game right there. Then consider the effectiveness of 16 more points over 80. (not counting phasers in the equasion. Their really moot since the same amount would be on either unit.)

I don't argue that 16 points is an insignificant difference. While there have been times more damage would have won the game, however there were many times that I scored too few. It’s a matter of where the threshold is at.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit


Another way to look at it is to take a CX. Is adding one photon tube too much? This is equivelent to 20 pointers.

If adding two more tubes for a total of six photons is OK the 24 pointers will be as well.

Yes, other X2 units may well handle it OK but I don't think the other generations will.

I just feel that 20 pointers are a good compromise between needing something more and too much.

My gut reaction is that a X1 photon is worth 1.25 GW photons. The ability to fire every turn and the choice of two turn arming makes the X1 photon more valuable than the GW photon, but does not equate to a ratio of 1:1.5 X1 to GW photons. Mega-photons are worth 1.4 GW photons in my opinion. While their damage potential is similar enough their vulnerability to damage compared to the GW photon does reduce their value. The CX with a BPV of 240 would be balanced with five X1 photons or six mega-photons (non x-tech). Getting hit by a dreadnaut BPVed ship should hurt whether it is a DN, a X1 CC or a X2 CC.

As a side note I did a box count on several of the current XCCs proposed so far. The average was about 125 boxes. By comparison the Fed CC+ has 101 (98 before refit) and the Fed DN+ has 151 (I don't have a box count on the DN). This would put most XCCs with ASIF very near a Fed DN+ in their ability to absorb damage.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 02:13 am: Edit

For it to be meaningful, IMO, a box count should be done with and without warp engines on the assumption that the engine itself adds negligible mass.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 02:38 am: Edit

But if the reason for the box count is to estimate how much damage the ship can take, you can't exclude the engines. And as a means to estimate mass, a box count has always been of limited value. A Plasma-R and a Plasma-F are both one box. I'm reasonably certain they are rather different from each other in real mass and volume.

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Tos,

In addition to what Alan posted, I will add that as far as SFB rules describe there is no real way to determine the mass of a given system. The warp engines can have negligible mass or can account for the bulk of the mass of a starship. There just is not sufficient information. That being said a box represents both a system and the ability to absorb damage and thus the overall resilience of the ship.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:09 pm: Edit

The number of hull "spaces" it takes up is a good indicator but in many ways.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 04:25 pm: Edit

What about photons having a 'third turn of arming' for the proportional amount of damage?

STD: 12
OVLD: 24
Prox: 6

Keep the X1 photon, and give it this third turn?

Comments?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Depends on whether the third turn is optional or not.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Yes, Optional.

It might give the x2 photon a more fearful face.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Yeah a lot of people have been looking at a table of warheads being.

Turn	Max Warhead
1	12
2	20
3	24

But personnally I don't think restricting to a third turn is needed.
If the Klingons really do run around with 6 X2 Disruptors then the 24 point warhead every turn is not that much of a head ache.
Indeed I would argue that 15 point fastloads from the Photon at the only thing that will break even with the six disruptor Klingons.
That being said I think fastloading 16s and two turn 24s would be balancable...but I suspect I'm the only one.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Roger, optional is in the realm of accepability, depnding on the particulars.

An enforced 3-turn arming cycle is not.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 02:10 pm: Edit

I never said it was the *only* way, just an option.

And we're running out of options for the photon:

1. keep it and improve it from X1?

2. pitch it create a new weapon and struggle through all the struggles.

I say let's bend our brains and struggle a little, let the PeRPs (Photon Replacement Program) begin!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 02:20 pm: Edit

The idea of having a third turn of arming for "heavy" or "hot" photons has been kicked around a lot over the life of the X-files threads. In most forms, it was something like this:

Add a third arming turn that will get you up to 24 point warheads. They cannot be held, and require a one-turn cool down. This would prevent someone from dumping four 24 pointers on you, then following up immediately with fast loads.

I'm not debating 24 point photons again...too much wasted time already. Suffice it to say I think it's a bad, bad idea and unnecessary. I have done playtesting with 20 pointers that had other little benefits, and they worked fine. Then again, most of my X2 ships I tested were not markedly better at combat than X1, which is the flavor I personally prefer.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Mike, thanks for the qualification of "my X2 ships I tested" which then depends on a myriad of variables.

When you say your X2s are not markedly better than X1 are you comparing by class, that is, X1DD to X2 DD?