Archive through July 05, 2006
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Captain's Log: CL54 Double Joker Edition :
Fed DD Refit:
Archive through July 05, 2006
In the year 175 the federation begain to equip CB's with Center Warp engines, it seems like the federation would
have also made a refit that would have equiped DD's with these warp engines as well perhaps as a refit for selected
ships starting in 177.
1. It wasn't so much a case of "refitting" CBs with center warp as it was a matter of building the new CB design with center warp from the get-go.
2. By the time that the CB class began construction, the DD had been out of production for at least six years, and the numbers of DDs in service were rapidly dwindling (they were in high demand for conversion to DEs and SCs, both of which suffered high loss rates in fleet battles). So, even if a retrofit were possible, there simply weren't that many DD hulls left, and those that did survive were in very high demand for various fleet support duties.
3. By Y177, slipways that had been able to handle the old DD hull were in pretty much constant use for NCL and NCA construction and refit; it would be difficult to get space allocated for refitting the older DD hull with something as intricate and time-consuming as internal-mounted center-warp engines (presumably, minor upgrades such as the Y175 drone rack refit and full aegis for escorts could be handled at smaller facilities).
Correction from my earlier post:
"By the time that the CB class began construction, the DD had been out of production for at least six years"
should instead read
"By the time that the proposed DD warp refit would occur, the DD had been out of production for at least six years"
While the design might be cool (and I have one on file), the cost would not.
In F&E it costs 6EP to buy a DD; I would expect an upgraded DD+ (DB?) to cost at least 7EP. For 6EP I can buy a NCA which is a far better ship.
Chuck,
I agree that the cost is pretty big, but in 177 I usally have at least 10DD's left and if the refit only cost 1EP and it gave you a ship with 7-6 or 7-7 factors to me that would be worth it.
That phaser Destroyer WOULD be pretty scary. Forget overloading, let me just run around with standards and EIGHT phaser-1s!!
Somewhere, I have a Fed DDW with all phasers. Have to see if I can find it again.
Jessica, answer #1 and 2 seem pretty logical and easily confirmed, but how did you arrive at the #3 answer?
Geoff: I dont remeber where #3 is stated. But it say's that in some material (IIRC R section somewhere.) That the DW was taking over the old DD slips. So as to not cut into the vital CW production.
Andy,
IIUC, the DD saucers became NCLs instead.
The DD slips were used to make NCLs (or at least that's what I recall from the R section). As such, the choice would be an NCL or a DDW... I think the DW were using FF slips, thus the DW production didn't interfere with DD/NCL production and that is why it uses a smaller saucer (think of it as an overgrown FF saucer).
Since this thread has been inactive for 5 years or so... lets see if we could try a different tack on the subject.
Assume you are the Federation Star Fleet admiral assigned to maintaining and upgrading the fleet during the Genral war:
Say that the situation is that described by John Pepper above, that the fleet has 10 DD+ hulls still in service, and that have not been converted to DE or SC.
What "Wartime" refit could one do during the General war that would increase the combat ability of the remaining DD class hulls (thus increase the total "raw" COMPOT those ships represent) without tying up the new construction slips but allows the most advantageous use of the available capacity of the surviving starbases to refit these ships?
Starting with a Federation Vanilla destroyer (the venerable DD), add all available refits (the +, AWR etc)...
What refit makes sense? What can be done to "improve" the DD?
Should the shields be upgraded? (say you add 6 shield boxes toe each shield, total 36 shileld boxes for all 6 shield facings.
Could the Impulse engines be improved to generate more power? afterall, the state of the art of engineering has improved over the 60+ years since the DD was first YIS... could the 4 box impulse engines generate 5 points of power? 6? would it be best to reflect that as a 6 box impulse engine system instead of a 5 box set?
What about the batteries? could they be improved? how?
if the + refit added 2 phaser 3 batteries... the enhanced wartime refit increase them still more...say instead of just 2 phaser 3's, coult the "Wartime DD refit" have 4 phaser 3's?
for some reason, the DD was under some sort of prohibition for drone G racks... was that limited to production problems and there simply were not enough G racks to go around? and the DD class got left out due to shortagegs? was there a technical reason that provented the DD from having drones? what if by year 177 the problems were solved and a G rack were added to the refit? what if 2 Gracks were added?
What if the phaser 1's were the most that could be added to the ship ever.... could the phaser capaciter be improved so that the system could store 1.33 point of phaser energy instead of 1 point per phaser 1? that would mean that instead of 6 points of phaser 1 energy in the capaciter... the capaciters could hold 8 points...
Other ideas? Comments? Suggestions?
DDL+ with a shield refit.
Batteries or a G-Rack would be nice, but where would you put them?
This is a discussion that can go nowhere.
You may as well say "what sort of systems could we add to pick-a-ship."
If you improve the impulse engines of the DD+a, then why not the CAR+a? Why not the FFGa? Why not the NCL+a? Any ship in the game can benefit from having a little more power, or more shields, or more reserve power, or more weapons, or some combination of any of the above. If a design as old as the DD could have all these things, why not just build new DDs?
Why do Fedeation ships have to be turned into Pseudo Klingons?
If you can enlarge the phaser capacitors on this class, why not every class? Does this really need to be done?
And why does a proposal HAVE to create "more ComPot" for Federation and Empire?
Steve Petrick, I was attempting to restart a discussion.
Towards that end I intentionally chose to start with provocative/controversial ideas.
I am willing to accept that impulse engines can not be improved.
I am also willing to freely concede that phaser capaciters are also verboten areas of improvements.
Not sure what part of the post caused the "psuedo Klingon" Comment, but again, what ever it was, I will withdraw that part of the post.
I would point out that refits dont necessarily improve a ships compot.
look at the F&E federation CA. there is no distinction between the vanilla CA, and the various refits (R, a, + , etc)... a CA has a COMPOT of 8 period (so far as I remember). While the paragraph that I think you are referring to did indeed talk about increasing the "RAW" compot, This was again a "controversial" premise that was designed to elicite responses from people. I knew from "the get go" that such is contrary to F&E general usage... but felt that encouraging people to respond was a worth while goal, (even at the risk of a purely negative response from those individuals who choose to personalize their insults and vitriol).
Question, are shield improvements impossible to add to ships that have 45+ years in service?
What about added phaser 3's (assuming room could be found for them as per Gary Bears comments)?
Same with added batteries and or Type G drone rack(s)... are they also imposible to add (assuming that such a change could still avoid 'Munchkinism')?
If, after reading this post, you feel that there is no point in discussing the issues raised, all you need do is say so... you (and SVC) have total control to end the discussion at any point.
We're all participating at your descretion... not the other way around.
Thank you,
Jeff Wile.
SFB enthusiast, who occasionally goes "overboard"! 
Jeff: It's annoying when you post bizarre suggestions and selectively interpret the design team's responses in an effort to "talk around" the limits of a design. SPP's post was not "here are the things that are not acceptable in your proposal". His post was "this idea is not workable and discussing it is a waste of time."
Oh, and I like the pre-emptive ad-homs. That really shows class.
Jeff Wile:
Uhm . . . while I will agree that someone might find the "pseudo-Klingon" reference a bit vague (it refers to packing drone racks onto Federation ships to make them dual direct-fire/drone ships). It refers to making them like their Klingon counterparts. Rather than having drone systems pretty much dedicated to drone defense (rather than offense) versus the Klingons, and drone offense and fighter defense against the Romulans. Putting two drone racks on a DD hull in addition to retaining the offensive firepower of a cruiser is going that route.
Other than that, the missive simply pointed out that if you can do any of the things you are proposing for the Destroyer as refits, than any of those things can be done to any other ship.
When do refits end? The Destroyer is already, afterall, a refitted ship. The AWRs (replacing half the labs) and added phaser-3s would seem to indicate that there is not much more than can be added to the hull.
In any case, what I said was that if you can further refit the ship with no degradation in capability, than anything you are adding to it can be added to virtually any other ship. If you can further increase the shields of a destroyer, than why not the shields of a heavy cruiser? Or a Battlecruiser? or even a Dreadnought? If you can increase the power output of a destroyer without sacrificing anything, then why not larger increases from the supposed technological improvements on other ships?
As to ComPot, you were the one who said the refit would increase the ComPot, I asked why any particular refit had to do so. Note that Federationa and Empire largely assumes that all refits are present, except for a few exceptional ones, e.g., Stasis Field Generator refits. It does this for the practical reason that having counters for unrefitted ships and refitted ships would grossly increase the cost of the game (countersheets are among the most expensive items in a game), and it is simply easier to assume that both sides incrementally added the refits all through the General War thus maintaining a rough parity in combat value. Thus adding yet another refit to the Destroyer might not be perceived as making any change to its ComPot at all in so far as Federation and Empire is concerned (which would certainly avoid having us try to sell Federation and Empire players new countersheets with counters that are the same but have their ComPots shifted up or down one level to reflect some new refit. Note that down would refer to a ship that did not receive a refit and lost combat value versus an opponent that did add a new refit thereby avoiding changing another counter . . . it all gets convoluted).
Beyond that, the general observation stands that any ship can be improved by simply adding things to it. At ADB we like to add refits where we have been given to perceive a true need. Thus the faster drones led to the Feds getting defensive drone racks and phaser-3s for drone defense (and if it were not for the near complete, but not complete just nearly so, uselessness of ADD racks on the Romulan Border the type-G drone rack might never have been invented).
Then there is a desire (here) to avoid "the perfect ship". We do not think there should be a ship that can run at speed 31 while charging all of its weapons with enough reserve power to completely reverse its EW equation just as it is about to shoot (for example, not saying you are proposing such a thing here). Part of the game is having to make decisions based on limited available power. And, yes, there are other decisions made to give ships strengths and weaknesses besides just available power.
We do not necessarily look at refits simply to make the ship better, but to look at the balance situation and determine if "a fix" is needed as a result of some problem. Thus the Destroyers got the AWR refit that replaced half of their labs, and most Federation ships got a drone rack and two phaser-3s as a result of faster Klingon (and Kzinti) drones. The Lyrans got an ESG refit (because of the preceived problems with coming up with the power to use the ESG a second time while trying to run fast enough and keep enough weapons armed to avoid destruction), and a power pack refit (because the "trimaran" designs proved even more susceptible to the rearming the ESG problem). The Hydrans got a Fusion holding refit because that extra power going into arming the fusion beams every turn was slowing them up in trying to get close enough to use them, and so on. Refits are generally installed for REASONS and after a lot of anguish rather than simply because it is fun to add one, and are added based on a general look at the race getting it, AND its opponents. You might consider balance issues if we just removed all the phaser-2s from Klingon, Lyran, and Hydran ships, replacing them with phaser-1s. And of course you are no doubt aware that the shield refits on Klingon and Lyran ships were driven by the Hydran Hellbore (barring the existence of the Hellbore, it is likely that the Lyrans, at least, would never have received a shield refit . . . it is questionable if the Klingons would have simply because the pre-B refit shields were such an engineering disaster in and of themselves, but the Hellbore made sure that it was done in both cases).
"If you can further increase the shields of a destroyer, than why not the shields of a heavy cruiser? Or a Battlecruiser? or even a Dreadnought?"
Indeed, the CA and DN are just as "old" as the DD...
Actually, the refits of the CA and DN do upgrade the shields, whereas the DD (and FF) does not get any such shield upgrades.
Personally, I have always wanted the plus refit for the DD to include the addition of two shield boxes on shields #3-5. This would upgrade its shields from 20-18-16-16 to 20-18-18-18, which mirrors the plus refits on the CA/CC.
But that bridge was crossed a really long time ago.
On the other hand, I am strongly against having a drone rack added to the plus refit for the DD. That saucer is packed. The pair of Ph-3 is probably even questionable.
Steve Petrick:
Most of what you posted is clear and definitive so I will not respond... again you have left little room to respond!
One point, however would seem to be open for a bit more discussion, namely the question of "When do refits end?"
In addition to those refits already discussed (various shield refits, the federation R, a, + etc) we now have the "XP" refits for the later General War... we have X technology being added to (in some cases) ancient designs (the various Romulan 'first generation' ships for example).
In one sense, (IMO) SFB might have been better off to never to have refits... that way the "vanilla" ship SSD's would have been all that was available.
That road, however was passed up infavor of a variable number of refits for various ships, not to mention a bewildering number of variants over the years.
Take for example the Fed CA... it has received the rear phaser refit, the AWR refit, the '+' refit... arguably the CC variant is little more than a command variant of the base CA design (with the addition of 2 more phaser 1's!)
Has it been decided that development of the CA is "frozen" and that there will never ever be another refit of the CA type?
If you tell me definitively that such is the case, I have no choice but to take you at your word...
But I look at Mike wests last post, and have to wonder if the shield refit of the DD is not only possible, but possibly been a long overlooked refit that should have been added to the game back during the designer's Edition of SFB's (the one before the commanders rules...which predated the captains edition.... which predated the MRB...)
(sigh) perhaps this is one can of worms I should not have opened...
Once again, I thank you for the courtesy of your response and the consideration that you have granted me.
Jeff Wile.
Jeff W./Mike W., perhaps there's a techno-babble reason for not upgrading the DD's shields. Without the CA's aft hull, they couldn't balance stronger shields.
Garth L. Getgen
Garth,
Actually, I don't really care why, nor do I particularly desire an explanation. It simply is and that is sufficient.
I was just pointing out that some ships mentioned above do get upgraded shields, while the DD did not. However, it is not unique in that. Several other "old" ships never got upgraded shields with their refits. (The Gorn CL is a great example of this.)
And, again, this is water way, way under the bridge. A bridge crossed long, long ago. Chose your favorite metaphor. At this point, I have no desire at all to see a change.
Jeff,
The added systems/weapons suggested for a DD would, to me, describe the NCL (R2.18) with a "plus" refit (Y165).
The Federation CA/CC seem to be better candidates for some type of late GW refit. The CB, among other improvements, added two center warp. Perhaps a Y183 "Klingon Border" refit, which adds:
1. Two center warp.
2. Two additional PH-3s in the same postions as on the NCL "plus" refit.
3. An additional drone rack.
4. Two boxes to shields 1, 2, and 6.
5. Optional: Limited aegis to control the PH-3s, ADDS, and drones.