Archive through September 04, 2014
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Captain's Log: New Fiction:
Federation Police Cutter -- Crew Roster:
Archive through September 04, 2014
Far as the build rate.
Once the Feds combined and started using a standard ship (DD,CL etc), would believe some of the Planetary ships would be passed along to the policing forces until they could be replaced with cutters. Those ships main mission would probably have been the same as the new cutters when controlled by the local governments.
Though not having standardized ships, they would have to maintain the C&C facilities.
No need to speculate on what makes up the Fed Space Police. It's pretty well laid out in the Federation Sourcebook. If you want to know look there.
Two thoughts on the necessary numbers of police cutters:
1. Not all of the territory within the bounds of the Federation border declaration were explored occupied at that time. It took soething like 3 decades before the Federation contacted the Gorn, so clearly some of this space does not need immediate patrol coverage.
2. The Y-modules state that a number of planetary governments transferred most or all of their warp-refit frigates to the Federation Police upon formation of the unified Starfleet. This provides a substantial initial seed force to cover a lot of territory while the modern police cutters are brought into service.
Now that I'm home and have books in hand ...
Ryan, no, it does not cover Mike's question: what is the command structure above Cutter like? Short answer: I say, five to seven Cutters plus a Flagship per squadron (one province), four to six squadrons per group, nine groups cover all of the UFP. An O-6 or O-7 commands a squadron; an O-7 or O-8 commands a group, and an O-9 runs the whole Police Force. SVC may come up with something different, of course.
Jeff, I just reconfirmed: one cutter per hex, one Flagship "along with an extra cutter or two" per province. Just above that, it does say that planets will have Skiff, not Cutters. But then it goes on to say that "each member planet may have its own flagship and several cutters". And let's not forget that you have to have some spares as no ship can fly forever without maintenance. No matter how you slice it, by my calculations there has to be three hundred cutters -minimum- for full deployment.
As I said, you don't build a fleet that large overnight, or even in a couple-few years. Also, remember that the Aurora Colony disappeared, taking a brand-new Police Cutter slipway. That was a major set-back for the program and presumable for the company that built Cutters. My guess is they trimmed back to six to nine new builds per year for several years. Thus, we don't get to full deployment (one per hex) until the Four Powers War.
Most of what's been written (fiction wise) in SFU is set in the General War era, with some set during the Four Powers War. There's not a lot of data from the early period when space was more like the Wild West. There is no Y-POL Early Cutter, so it appears that the Police only had short-ranged Skiffs and the like prior to Y127 when the Cutter was born (well, Y125 to allow for prototypes).
What I suggested is that the initial deployments in Y127 - Y135 go to convoy escort duty running between the Major/Minor Planets. By Y140 or so, there should be enough to put one at each base & planet. As time goes on, these are replaced by Skiffs and such, allowing the Cutters to be fielded to their patrol hex, but not yet with full one-per-hex coverage (probably one per two hexes at this point).
What Mark said is true to a minor degree, but I doubt there would be a large number of such ships transferred to police duty. First, planets were pretty stingy with their National Guard ships. By the time they had more modern ships and were willing to part with them, the Police would have had a lot of Cutters in service and not need many of these hand-me-downs. Second, I'm not sure the Police would want them as the crew requirements was much larger than for a Cutter. They could field two Cutters for the price of one YDD's crew. And as old as the ships were, the maintenance was probably rather intense.
EDIT: Jeff, I didn't remember ever reading that. But I would suspect that most of those ended up becoming Flagships.
Garth L. Getgen
Ryan, is that information in ANY of the Federation versions for Prime Directive?
I'm considering biting the bullet and getting the books for either Gurps or D20, but really have little interest in doing role playing. I would be getting them for the background info they contain.
Garth, the time period I am interested in would run from about Y120-Y150, but the other info is interesting and may be helpful for future projects.
Mike,
I don't have the d20 handy but it is in d20M so I would bet its in the other.
You can get the digital copies of Gurps from warehouse 23.
Look at page 115 1st column 1st para on space police. Also consider its based on the USCG for organization.
Most planetary police won't be Federal but belong to the planet.
After reading Garth's first major post on the police fleet I had the same idea Jeff did (before reading Jeffs post).
I think the Federation Police would have purchased modified versions of FTs and APTs. Over time Cutters would replace these and olders police versions of FTs and APTs would be replaced.
I'd suggest that there was a full police fleet at the time of the Federation border declaration but would be heavily supplemented with alternative police vessels. At that time perhaps the deployment of Cutters would have been in two rings of concentration.
The first area with a full complement of Cutters would be the core of the Federation and the next would be all the border provinces. The ring of provinces between would have the most alternative vessels and be filled out by the GW.
It could be a historical note that it was the huge investment into the FT by the police that made the FT so affordable to commercial and private enterprises, which in turn helped fuel the Federation economy. That is, both the number of surplus ships that became available and the economy of scale for manufacturing. The FT might never have been so ubiquitous had the Federation Police not driven manufacturing in the early years of the Federation.
Known national guard transfers to the Federation Police, per module Y2 and Y3
ca. 20 Terran WFF - all destroyed or retired by Y135
ca. 10 Alpha-Centauri WAF - all destroyed or retired by Y108
ca. 14 Rigelian WRF - all destroyed or retired by Y132
4 Terran WDL - all destroyed or retired by Y124
unknown# of Terran WDD - all destroyed or retired by Y124
(NB - The hull of the WDD / WDL is more or less the basis for the POL)
Mike, again this is my take on things, and SVC may veto some/all of it.
We don't really have a lot of information about the birth & growth of the Federation. The GURPS book covers the entire history from Y8 to Y215 in six-and-a-half pages We know that in Y102, the Federation Senate unilaterally and arbitrarily declared the UFP border to be a circle 4750 parsecs radius. That was a lot of territory "annexed" that was not yet explored. I can envision Star Fleet sending ships out to the rim at top speed to mark the border, bypassing hundreds of potential colony planets. Once the borders were defended (see Federation-Klingon War Y110-111), in Y120 the Senate began a program of exploration & expansion. It would be like the Wild West as people went to stake their claims during the Homestead Act land rush. (The show's creator did say he wanted it to be "The Wagon Train to the Stars".)
And there was a lot of land to be claimed. A couple years back, I posted math that shows how one can assume there are about a million stellar bodies per F&E hex, with about a thousand "usable" planets and perhaps ten Class-M planets per hex.
The UFP core was well settled, and the outer ring was covered with military outposts and the like. It was time to fill in the gaps. However, the government cost over-runs, the loss of the Aurora colony in Y130, the Kzinti War in Y136-142, and the political quagmire that lasted until Y151 all delayed proper colonization of this "middle ring". Oh, that's not to say it wasn't colonized, but mainly by private corporation-sponsored settlers to run mining / agricultural operations.
So, what's all this mean for the Space Police? A few things. First, as I've mentioned, it took a few decades to build the fleet to full power from scratch. The command structure started out fairly simple. I figure that between Y127 and Y135 or so, Cutters were simply under a single central headquarters. After there were enough ships in service to make this unwieldy, the nine Group commands were set up one at each on-map Star Base. Eventually, sometime just prior to the Four Powers War, the Groups were further broken down into Squadrons.
In my article, I suggested (subject to SVC's veto) that the Space Police wasn't formalized as the sole law enforcement entity until Y151. Prior to that, it was a hodge-podge of several agencies. There were too many law enforcement agencies, with different and often conflicting jurisdictions, operating in space. For example, of someone was found with a shipment of Romulan ale, the Food & Drug inspectors would verify that it was safe to drink; the Bureau of Alcohol & Tobacco would want to make sure it was properly taxed, and the Drug Enforcement Agency would confiscate it as an illicit narcotic.
The Space Police was a police force in name only. All of the agencies mentioned above, plus dozens of others, wanted a true starship (the Cutter), but none wanted the expense of running them. The Space Police owned the ships and crew, but the mission priority was dictated by whichever agency supplied the command staff. It was an impossible situation, of course, until all space-borne law enforcement missions were consolidated under the Space Police. (Said agencies still existed intact as planet-based agencies.) Of course, SVC might not like any of that and edit it out. Depends on what mood I catch him in.
Another factor was private security firms, as talked about in the GURPS book, which were the de-facto police force for many corporate-sponsored colonies. They also provided convoy escorts, a mission the Cutter was originally intended to do. As this took some of the burden off the Police, it was also a cause for concern. Were the security firms protecting the colonists, or were they the corporate enforcers? Would they hand over criminals, or meld out punishment on their own? Would they help the Police / Marshals in tracking down fugitives, or would they take a bribe and protect him? Like I said, is was the Wild West.
Garth L. Getgen
Loren,
I'm not disagreeing with the idea. In fact, it makes sense to a point. However, consider that the FT and APT were both invented in Y125 (with the advent of the modern warp drive), just two years before the POL. While I'm sure the build rates were much higher than the Cutter's, I don't think there were enough (not being bought up by private companies) to field one police ship per province, let alone one per hex, any time before Y140 or so. Again, remember that "several" Cutters were lost with the Aurora colony. That put a big dent in the inventory.
Garth L. Getgen
Garth, I'm just saying that prior to the FT such a police buying program the FT was probably pretty expensive. Compared to a freighter it is fairly luxurious and nice that it can land. The economics were probably difficult work. I could even see the business barely scratching a profit. Then at some point the Fed Police need numbers greater than Pol production can produce.
So they supplement production with an FT variant. I'm sure that not all provinces needed full policing either so it wouldn't need to fully occupy all provinces all at once. But the buying program might have doubled the rate that they could assign new ships. Once the supply fit the need (still not the final count but an evolving need) Pol production would start to over take FPTs (Federation Police Transport). At some point they would be sold off while some might be re-equipped for other missions (prisoner transport).
There were Early Year versions of the Free Trader including the Prime Corvette. If I remember correctly, the rulebook (Y3) states that Prime Corvettes (YCT) and Armed Cutters (YCUT) were used as Police Ships in the EY period (in addition to the retired frigates).
It's amazing what discussion a simple question can cause. I have enjoyed reading all the offerings.
And, yes, my question was answered.
garth,
I hate to point this out, but If I Recall Correctly (IIRC) the ship name registry was changed from "about fifty others" to "over a hundred" other names for POL cutters.
If the true number is (as you posted) 400+ then the ship name registry would be in error.
Unless there were one or more additional classes of police ships (beyond that of the FLGs, and variants of the various APT, Free Trader and Prime Trader police ships) with a different name series.
There have been some proposals made over the years, but nothing official.
One other consideration: if there are infact more than 500 POL class hulls in service, then the total personnel assigned to police duties would be as large as the star fleet, but might actually be a larger organization since the UFP Star Fleet numbers far less than 200 star ships in fall year 168...
Jeff, in the GURPS book, it says "over two hundred". Well, isn't 300 "over two hundred"? 
The numbers are simple:
There are 257 on-map hexes, plus 7 in the Orion Enclave. There are at least 15 and perhaps as many as 28 off-map hexes, for a maximum of 292 hexes.
There are 46 on-map provinces plus 3 off-map, for a total of 49.
There are 13 Star Bases and 34 Base/Battle Stations, for a total of 47 Bases.
There are a total of 12 Major and 21 Minor planets, for a total of 33 planets. This is only counting F&E planets, as the gazetteer lists many planets that seem to be "significant" but don't show up on the F&E map.
As I said, there are early SFB references, mostly from pre-Y2K products, that say each base/planet could be assumed to have one or two Cutters assigned to it. My way around that is to say that this is more true pre-Four Powers War, but later these are replaced by Skiffs and such to release the Cutters to patrol zones (one per hex). That still leaves you with 257+ hexes to cover. Add in one extra per province, and it's 303+ Cutters. Again, that does not allow any planet/base to have their own Cutter, nor any for special duty assignments (i.e., attached to Star Fleet Inspector General or Criminal Investigative Service).
You just don't build that many ships quickly. Even at a war-time production rate, Star Fleet only built 24 FFG (later FFG/DW mix) per year. Per-war, it was six to eight per year. I figure a fast rate of production might be one Cutter per month, if it can be sustained, and it still takes twenty-five years to field 300 ships. I just don't see how they can have one-per-hex before the Four Powers War. Yes, of course the Police Force will fill-in with other ships (APT/FT, etc.), but those ships simply do not have the capabilities that a Cutter has.
Garth L. Getgen
Disclaimer: I only casually read this thread.
Quote:Yes, of course the Police Force will fill-in with other ships (APT/FT, etc.), but those ships simply do not have the capabilities that a Cutter has.
It seems to make the most sense to me that the bulk of the police forces for any empire is going to be something along the lines of APTs/FTs/Armed Freighters/Q-ships, while cutters and police flagships would be around for serious matters only.
At first, when I read the one hex per cutter comment, I thought, "Dang, only one cutter in a 500 parsec hex? No way!"
But thinking further, if you consider that the police forces have way more "ordinary" ships that are similar to civilian craft, it makes more sense.
My understanding was that the bulk of Police forces were actually smaller than that and consists of a lot of short-ranged security skiffs (more akin to a police patrol car or a Coast Guard launch) and various shuttles, intended primarily for near or in-system operations.
Larger craft (like APTs/FT) in Police service would be less common (more akin to a police SWAT truck/paddy wagon or a Coast Guard offshore patrol boat).
The really big (by their terms) Police cutters and flagship frigates are more akin to the Coast Guard cutters and high endurance cutters (sized around a naval corvette, but with completely different capabilities).
Again, just my understanding from CapLog articles, etc., and I could be wrong.
Note also that police cutters are "federal" law enforcement/rescue, like the Coast Guard. Every planet is going to have local police forces. Any corporate-owned facility is going to have some kind of security, either in-house or contracted for with a security firm (e.g. Black Diamond, or Lone Wolf Security).
As far as civilian variants go, the armed cutter variant of the APT and the Prime Trader variant of the Free Trader are both pretty capable. Not nearly as good as a proper police ship, but they are well within the reach of a planetary government or private security firm.
Skiffs...yeah, forgot about those.
Probably a whole passel 'o those little things.
Garth,
I hate to be a wet blanket, so to speak... but its worse than you are presenting.
Look at the campaign rules (I think rule section U, but I don't have my rule books handy just now.). There is a section that specifies for ships on active duty/patrols have a one in six chance per year of being damaged. Further, each damaged ship has a one in six chance of actually being destroyed.
If true(and I admit, its a very old rule) that means each year out of 300 POLs 50 or so get crippled to the point that requires serious repair. Out of those 50, 16 or 17 are destroyed.
Worse yet, your "peace time" construction rate of 6-8 new cutters per year won't be enough to replace just the operational and or combat losses.
Second, you should also account for block obsolecence of the older POLs. I have no ideal what the expected service life of a POL in SFU is, but if we assume(just to have a number to work wth for this discussion) that the average service life of a POL is on the order of thirty years, the replacement rate of POLs would be ten per year, not counting replacements for combat losses. And that rate won't change between peacetime or war time... time moves on so just during the sixteen years that the general war was bieng fought, the federation should have built atleast 160 POLs plus replacements for combat losses.
On the plus side, during various wars it is unlikely that any POLs would havebeen retired mothballed or scrpped.
I have to wonder if the police used the same shipyards as the fed star fleet for POL production, or if they had a POL production facility somewhere else. Given the size of a POL cutter, perhaps they were manufactued on a major member world like vulcan or Cygnus.
Just some thoughts that might be pertinent.
Since a frigate can be built at a starbase, it makes sense to me that a POL can be built there as well. Probably even at a smaller facility. Maybe even a civilian base? And it seems there would be tons of those floating around.
Jeff,
No, I said that Star Fleet built about six to eight FFGs during pre-war construction. I figure at first 12 POLs per year seems reasonable. That's at one slipway. Once they have several constructions sites, they could cut back to 6-8 per year per slipway and still increase total production.
Per published history, the first POL slipway was the old WDD slipway. And a new slipway was at the Aurora colony when it disappeared. Losing that was a huge setback to the company that built Cutters. And yes, they eventually used Star Base facilities to increase production rates to recover from that and other events.
Garth L. Getgen
Jeff, I skimmed thru the campaign rules and don't see that 1-in-6 / 1-in-36 rule you're talking about. If you can find it, please let me know. Thanks.
Garth L. Getgen
Garth, I will look for the reference.
I know it was old (pre-doomsday edition). I have to go to Illinois for a memorial service for my wifes aunt (thats the fourth family service so far this year, one uncle and three aunts in less than 9 months.) I will try to get the answer Monday for you.