The key to their survival is acceleration. I wrote a CL article in which I purposed that smaller ships can got from Warp 3.1 to Warp 8+ faster than larger ships. The cutter, being the smallest ship in the fleet, can open the gap faster than anything else. The down side is bigger ships have high top speeds, it just takes them longer to get there. Ergo, the cutter has to get out of sensor range, change course, and find a place to hide. If it can do that, it will survive. If it can't get out of sensor range, the bigger ship will close the gap back up and eventually run it down. Game over, man.


Garth L. Getgen

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 - 11:25 pm: Edit

The Fed-Kling border from K3 to just north of K8 is 12 hexes. We know 2 POLs were lost at K7, with one more departing the day before the invasion. So if we go one per sector that's 12. I'd expect a few extra ships on border patrol. We know some escaped by being unnoticed as the Klingons went by on thier missions.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 09:31 am: Edit

the invasion did not end with just occupation of the provinces adjacent to the border neutral zones. I have not looked but if only 5 provinces contained all or portions of the 12 hexes Ryal Opel referred to, then the total f&e hexes those provinces contain would be on the order. of 30 or more hexes.

that means as many as 30 or more PoL cutters were engaged or at risk of engagement with the Klingon ships invading the Federation. plus whatever FLG happened to be n those provinces a the time. I know some have suggested that there is a FLG assigned to each province, but I do not recall if that is "official" or a published number.

Nor do we know what number of various Seeker, security, modular courier, skiffs were present in those hexes at the time of the invasion (August, year 171.)

Depending on survival, there might have been zero, 1, 2, 3, 4, or even as many as 5 FLG class ships inservce on the front lines as the Klingons rolled into the Federation.

an "untold story" is just what all of these Orphaned police ships and non ship units did during the invasion. It's doubtful that all of them were destroyed or marooned in occupied territory by the Klingons, though it is known that some were.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 10:20 am: Edit

Some were captured, I presume. Being a civilian ship, technically, the Klingons would have treated them less harshly.

From my "History Of" the cutter in my fiction writing:

Y168-Y171: (Klingon-Kzinti War / beginning of Great Galactic War) Assigned patrol zone, southern province on Klingon border, stationed out of planet Arctuia-II
Y171: Caught behind enemy lines as Klingons invade Federation space, managed to escape a pair of D-6 Battle Cruisers due to fact smaller ships have a higher acceleration rate (but lower top-end speed) and was able to dive into a "soupy" proto-planetary star system where it hid for over a month, surreptitiously reporting back to Star Fleet on passing Klingon ships. Eventually, it made a run to friendly territory. Along the way, it stumbled upon a small freighter convoy and attacked, causing enough damage to delay the Klingon operations for a few days (time Star Fleet desperately needed).
Y171: Upgraded with the "Plus refit", adding a defensive weapons suite and improving the power reactor
Y171-Y173: Assigned patrol zone, southeast region near Romulan neutral zone, stationed out of planet Sebelia-IV
Y173: Evacuated civilian refugees, barely staying one step ahead of Romulan invasion fleet


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 11:52 am: Edit

Would the Klingons make the distinction between warships of Star Fleet and a civilian Police Cutter?

not arguing either way, just asking for clairity sake.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 12:54 pm: Edit

We'd have to check with Petrick on that score (he being the resident Klingon expert), but a lot would depend on whether or not the cutter attempted to fight back. The code of conduct says you must resist if possible, not commit suicide.


Garth L. Getgen

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 01:05 pm: Edit

If you are assembling a list of police cutters presented in SFU fiction, and if you haven't accounted for this issue already, there is a POL featured in the Return of the Hood cover story from Captain's Log #25. There is another cutter in the Andromedan-themed fiction story in that same issue, but things don't work out quite so well for it...

Also, the Stones and Glass Colonies cover story from Captain's Log #41 and the Into the Eagle's Nest cover story from Captain's Log #47 are each written from a police perspective.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 07:12 pm: Edit

The 12 destroyed mention is on the morning of 2nd day of the invasion. Yes losses will be higher as the fight goes past the first day.

At what distance does a POL look different in energy scans from another warp ship. When do I as the Klingon squadron commander deviate from the highly planned order of attack to chase down a possible hostile?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, August 15, 2019 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Ryan, if you go by rule (D17.4), one can guess that it's a lone POL at range "S2" based on the "total movement cost (per hex) of all the ships", at range "S3" you can tell it's a single ship, and at range "S4" you can tell the movement cost of each ship. That's kind of redundant since you know it's only one ship.

The rules say that range "S5" is double that of range "A", so assuming the invading force brought a scout, out to 300 hexes. However, the rules do not define ranges "S1" to "S4", but let's assume each is doubled the next. The POL could be seen at 4800 hexes and identified at 2400 hexes. The POL doesn't have a scout sensor but would see the Klingon task force at 3200 hexes.

~~~~~~~~~

Gary, thanks for the data. I think I have some of that already, thanks to Ryan sending me a list of historical scenarios involving the POL.


Garth L. Getgen

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, August 16, 2019 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Garth, doubled numbers -

---- SC / ship / GWS / GB
-A = 150 / 100 / 075 / 050
S5 = 300 / 200 / 150 / 100
S4 = 600 / 400 / 300 / 200
S3 = 1.2k / 800 / 600 / 400
S2 = 2.4k / 1.6k / 1.2k / 800
S1 = 4.8k / 3.2k / 2.4k / 1.6k
S0* = 9.6k [/ 6.4k / 4.8k / 3.2k]?

* explosions (mine/combat), active special sensor sweeps …

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, August 17, 2019 - 09:18 am: Edit

Thanks, Stew, that's what I came up with, too. I did it quickly, so it's nice to know I didn't miss something.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 09:08 am: Edit

Up-topic, I talked about how there are typically thirteen officers on a Police Cutter.

Commander / Ship's Captain
Executive Officer / First Officer
Operations Officer
Intelligence Officer
Science Officer
Weapons Officer
Chief Engineer
Assistant Engineer
Tactical Officer (aka Security Officer)
Doctor / Ship’s Surgeon / Chief Medical Officer
Nurse or Physician’s Assistance
Chief Shuttle Pilot
Shuttle Pilot

So, what if there are more than thirteen on a cutter, what are their titles / jobs?

Well, junior officers typically start their careers out as a Shuttle Pilot, so it wouldn't be uncommon to have three shuttle pilots until one of them gets moved up the food chain. Alternatively, one might become the Assistant Weapons Officer or Assistant Tactical Officer, basically a training period.

Obviously, a ship could have a third Engineering officer or Medical officer (doctor or nurse). Those are somewhat closed career paths; medical and engineer officers very rarely move to the front of the boat and onto the command path.

There is one more possibility. If there is an extra mid-grade officer (Lieutenant O-3), they could assume the title of Navigator. This person would fall between the Ops Officer and Intel Officer, and would assume a supervisory role over the helm/nav & stellar cartography personnel.

I mentioned somewhere above that on Frigates and larger, there are three to five officers (Navigators) whose primary duty is to stand Bridge Watch while the Captain & First Officer are off doing command stuff.

A police cutter is too small to afford the luxury of having full-time watch officers. However, on occasion there is an extra body caused by an overlap of assignments, such as when a new person rotates in before their predecessor leaves, or a junior officer is promoted to a new job. Such situations rarely last more than three months or so before the extra person transfers out.


The reason I mention any of this is I was thinking about adding a Navigator to the crew of the ship in my fiction writing, and making him the source of tension with some of the crew.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 10:02 am: Edit

Garth,

I imagine those that have served in the military in Real Life tm might well have a different view than life long civilians (like me!), but my first reaction is to observe that not all ships comply with a rigid crew assignments. The real world is not perfect all of the time (as you have pointed out, a POL is too small.)

That said, cross trading happens. Stewards might want to (or be offered the chance to ) cross train as a gunner, or a medical orderly, or in the deck crew (perhaps the only times the steward sees the deck crews is when delivering donuts and coffee for break time. Must think the deck crews just lounge around all the time since he is never there to see them humping drones into the admin shuttle for scatter pack missions. If only he knew the truth!)

The other thing that might happen, is some times ships end up at the end of a very long logistical supply chain. Officers get reassigned, transfer, or might even die in the line Of duty.

The task of running a ship (or a base, or a battalion) can’t stop because they are missing an officer or two.

That’s why there are “mustang officers” who stepped up and did the job. Audie Murphy being the classic example. (Those of you who do not know who he is, shame on you. There is more to his story than just being an actor,)

Point is, instead of forcing an extra officer oN to the ship, why not make the navigator/troublemaker into a battlefield promotion of a long time warrant or CPO(chief petty officer).

Perhaps some of the tension comes from the fact the new officer came up from the ranks instead of from the academy?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Garth Getgen:

You might query Celestia about organizing the watches.

While the ship is small, you need to rotate the command crew so that the bridge is pretty much always "manned" whatever the duty day is.

But manning may define a need for more officers.

And obviously you cannot really start everyone's career paths as "shuttle pilot" as there are simply not enough shuttle pilot slots to create the base of the command pyramid. (I know you know about the command pyramid, I am just giving a basic description here for the mostly civilian readers).

A line Infantry Company has (when I was in) five LTs. Four of these are platoon leaders (three rifle platoons and one combat support platoon), one is the XO. Nominally they all operate under a captain as company commander. Technically all of the LTs are supposed to be 1LTs, but platoon leader is the entry point for infantry branch and most platoons are led by 2LTs working their way to 1LT and beyond, and sometimes the company commander is a 1LT instead of a captain.

Normally three of these companies provide the ground maneuver elements of a battalion (again, referring to my own service), meaning you have three Captains, and 15 LTs. But you also have a weapons company (converted to an anti-tank/TOW company) which is also led by a captain, with a LT XO and five TOW elements (20 TOW systems divided into five platoons of four TOWs each), and each led by a LT), giving you (outside of staff) and Headquarters company) four captains and 21 LTs. The Headquarters company adds a heavy mortar platoon (another LT) and a company commander (Captain) and XO (LT) for five captain's and 23 LTs.

Battalion staff has a LTC (Battalion Commander), two majors (Battalion XO and Battalion Operations Officer), four captains (Assistant Operations Officer, primary Personnel Officer, Intelligence Officer, and Supply Officer). All of whom might be infantry officers serving in a "broadening" position (I was an infantry officer serving as battalion intelligence officer for example), but might be filled by branch specific officers (rare at battalion level, but not unusual). Each of these may have LTs working under them (Assistant intelligence officer, I never had one, Support platoon leader, chemical warfare officer, communications officer, the latter two are almost always "branch specific" and not infantry officers doing the job). So propping up that O5 Battalion Commander are two Majors, nine captains, and about 30 LTs.

Of those 2LTs, about 95% will make 1LT. Of the ILTs, about 80% will make Capt. Of the Captains, about 50% will make Major Of the Majors, about 30% will make LT Col. Of the LT Colonels, about 15% will make full Colonel. Of the Full Colonels, less than 5% will make General.

But the upshot is that you need a lot of LTs to support one General, so most of your junior officers are not going to be starting their careers as shuttle pilots because there simply are not enough shuttles in the fleet

Basically the reality is (in my view) that you are going to have a "gunnery officer" who is the senior member of that department (possibly an O2, possibly an O3), and some of the Junior officers (ensigns) joining your boat will be assigned to the Gunnery Department and will supervise an individual phaser crew. At some point such an ensign might be transferred to engineering, and perhaps supervise the Impulse engines, or the warp drive under the authority of the chief engineer. Later the young ensign might be transferred to be the XO of the Marine detachment to gain familiarity with what the troops do (beyond his original basic training). Then later rotate into the Navigation department.

When he has some "seasoning" and familiarity with the boat and its routines, he will be elevated to stand watches on the bridge (probably not the senior watch officer until he has made LT J.G.).

But I would suspect that even a boat as small as this one would have the departments of a larger ship and rotate the junior officers through them (including the job of "Mess officer").

And of course there are all those "Additional Duties." Like "Morale Officer," and "Physical security officer," and "Arms Room Officer." and ...

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 02:15 pm: Edit

To Compliment SPPs info,
Pretty sure it's the same for INF...
Armor Platoon Ldr positions can be filled by SFC (E-7), when 2Lts aren't available....

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Manning is always an issue of what the TO&E says and reality.

In combat, platoons that are supposed to be led by 1LTs are sometimes led by SSGs, and even E4s.

In the aftermath of Vietnam the first platoon I was assigned to in 1979 was supposed to have a strength of 43 personnel organized as three 10 man rifle squads, each composed of an Alpha Team (Sgt and three E4s, one armed with an M203), a Bravo Team (Sgt and four E4s, one armed with an M203) and an SSG squad leader, one 10 man weapons squad (2xM60 machinegun teams of three E4s each) three anti-armor specialists (three E4s each carrying an SU36P Dragon Missile Sight) and an E6 squad leader, and a platoon headquarters of a 1LT, SFC, and E4 radioman.

The reality was a 22 man platoon, organized as two squads and a platoon headquarters. Each squad included one two (2) man machinegun team (the "ammo bearer" was omitted from each team), one designated anti-armor specialist, two men armed with M203s, and two or three riflemen, 1st Squad was led by an SSG and had an SGT, second squad was led by an SGT and had an SGT as a second. Four of the 22 soldiers were either deployed away from the platoon on "additional duty" (one was on the post football team, another was a life guard, I kid you not) or were on "permanent profile," i.e., they were in the platoon for head count, but only attended training if they felt like it and were "non-deployable" if we went to war (In an infantry platoon????). But the PLT HQ had a 2LT, an SFC, and a radio man!

When the embassy was seized in Iran that November, that was the force I was looking at "going to war" with. And my platoon was representative of the other combat (as opposed to combat support) platoons of the brigade it was part of, and bear in mind that my brigade was the "heavy asset" of the 18th Airborne Corps that was supposed to be deployed immediately to back up the 82nd Airborne if it was deployed. I can tell you the brigades armored cavalry troop had enough men to drive its vehicles, but had no deployable "infantry scouts," and for the first major exercise I ever deployed on, my platoon was attached to the Cavalry troop to provide the "infantry scouts." And given my own platoon's lack of personnel, that meant one of the Cavalry troop's platoons deployed with NO infantry.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Petrick, you haven't said anything I haven't already thought of.

Shift rotation: I have three four-man teams of enlisted for bridge duty (helm/nav/comms/sensors) working some sort of rotational schedule. Each team will have at least one Petty Officer First Class (E-6) (typically one PO1 slot is filled by a Chief E-7). If this were a Frigate, each team would have a mid-grade officer, a Navigator, assigned on the same rotational schedule to cover bridge watch while the CO/XO/OPS are off doing command duties. Nobody expects the Captain to just sit in the Center Seat all the time.

However, due to the lack of personnel, Cutters don't have full-time watch officers (Navigators) assigned. Ergo, the rest of the command-line officers are forced to pull part-time or half-shift bridge-watch duty. There are at least seven officers -- Captain, Exec, Ops, Intel, Weapons, and both Shuttle Pilots -- available to pull Bridge Watch duty. You can usually add the Tac Officer in that list, and the Science and/or one or both Engineers (or even the Doctor) might also be qualified.


Linear career paths: Again, something that has me concerned as well. In one of my fiction stories, two POL captains had a conversation in which one mention talk of Star Fleet absorbing the Police Force. She says it'll never happen, of course (the Supreme Court ruled that Posse Commitatus stands), but wishful thinking is it would be a good thing if the two services did merge. The other officer responds by saying he used to be Star Fleet, and their problem is the pyramid is very broad at the base, so they tend to eat their young.

If the Police Force was made up solely of Cutters, the only career path would be: Shuttle Pilot --> Weapons / Tactical --> Intel --> Ops --> Exec --> Captain.

Fortunately, the Police Force has other means to feed the pipeline. There are Frigates (FLAGS) that have more junior officer billets. There are lots of junior officers assigned to ground stations (either on-planet or on Starbases/BATS) including District / Force HQ, and while I haven't worked out a crew roster I'm sure Security Skiffs would have a couple O-1/O-2 slots. Also, the Police will recruit/poach good junior and mid-grade officers from Star Fleet every chance they get.

So, yes, the Police does actually have a career pyramid. It looks more like the Transamerica Building in San Francisco than the Great Pyramids of Giza, but at least it has a relatively stable base.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 04:08 pm: Edit

In the name of full disclosure, I will again reiterate that I'm a life-long grade 4-F Civilian no-class, BUT...

One thing I've read about is the idea of an officer wearing "Multiple Hats." I don't know if it reflects reality at all, but the best example I can think of comes from the original Star Trek series; Spock is the First Officer, the Science Officer, AND he operates the CiC computer on the bridge (which makes him the de-facto intelligence officer as well).

IF (and this is a BIIIIG "If") there is any validity to this as a field standard, I think it not unreasonable for, on a small ship, a ships doctor to also serve as the chief science officer, an intelligence officer to oversee a weapons department, or junior watch helmspeople and navigators to be the folks to fly shuttles.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 04:31 pm: Edit

I had a paramedic mentor, Jimmy, that was drafted and sent to Vietnam right out of boot camp in 1970. At the end of his year, he was an ACTING Staff Sergeant, COMMANDING his platoon (3 LTs killed), and also acting radioman (he said the guy standing NEXT to the radioman always got shot first, so he carried his own radio).

He had an amazing story about when he was told "get on that helo, you're done..."

My god father when he returned to Vietnam in 1963 (he was a lifer commissioned in 1960) for his second tour (as an coy XO this time) was only in country 4 days before his Captain stepped on a land mine. Commanded the company for the rest of the tour. He also has some amazing stories about deployments (not combat, the other stuff).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson:

As an example of two hats.

In Korea, for a brief while (a month of more, and including a major field exercise) I wore two hats as both the Company Executive Officer and the Weapons Platoon Leader. The previous Weapons Platoon Leader rotated back stateside, and I wound up both stripped of my rifle platoon, kicked upstairs to company executive officer, and also made the weapons platoon leader just before the battalion deployed for Team Spirit. I can attest that wearing both hats during Team Spirit was exhausting, particularly because the platoon sergeant for the Weapons Platoon also left, and neither of the two existing section sergeants were able to fill that role. To give you an idea of competence, I asked the TOW section leader one morning what his fuel state was, and he told me to my face that it was good. Not 15 minutes later he pulled back into the the location of the mortar section towing one of his jeeps that had run completely out of gas and none of his sections 5 gallon Jerry Cans had fuel.

I do not know how I kept from exploding.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 04:54 pm: Edit

On a semi-adjacent note, I should mention that according to the Federal Republic of Aurora update file in Captain's Log #53, the "space police" duties which would be handled by the Federation Police back in the Alpha Octant are instead handled by the Auroran Navy's Home Fleet, in a "military police" role. This includes things which, for various reasons, are specific to the Omega Octant - such as screening civilian traffic for signs of Sigvirion infection.

So, if there were ever to be a reason to account for the differences between the crew of a Federation POL and that of an Auroran FF, there might yet be some "police" functions which would remain in place, or perhaps be adapted for local considerations.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Gary, that does beg the question: does any other empire combine their space navy and space police services. We know for a fact that the Federation does (possibly due to Posse Commitatus laws) and the Klingons have their Internal Security Forces, which appears to be completely separate from the Imperial Deep Space Fleet. I haven't seen much evidence that Klingon personnel can easily transfer between the services.

I just looked it up and now see that the Romulans have the State Security Administration and the Star Police Force. Again, there's not much to suggest that personnel can transfer between the police and military services.

As to the rest: Kzinti, Lyran, Hydran, Gorn, or ISC ... only SVC can say for sure, but I suspect that they, too, have separate police forces. Could one or more empires have theirs together under a combines command structure?? I don't know why not. The WYN and LDR probably do.


Garth L. Getgen

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 06:48 pm: Edit

In the Alpha Octant, the major empires tend to have distinct Navy and Police forces; in the case of the Inter-Stellar Concordium, the unified police force actually pre-dated the founding of a unified Navy. Smaller empires such as the WYNs or LDR did not necessarily have such luxuries; both of those empires were obliged to press their police hulls into Naval service.

There isn't a lot of data on "space police" forces in the Omega Octant as of yet, outside of the Federal Republic at least. For example, the Trobrin Empire has a Patroller hull (OR4.12) which is broadly equivalent to an Alpha Octant police ship or light patrol craft. However, it's not quite clear as of yet if the Trobrin actually have a separate "space police" force they assign these ships to, or if they belong solely to the Trobrin navy, or if some go to one service and the rest to the other (akin to the E3/G2 split in Klingon space).

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 06:55 pm: Edit

The Orion national guard already doubled as police prior to independence and they became the defacto navy of the Enclave after Star Fleet withdrew.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, April 02, 2020 - 10:35 pm: Edit

Yeah, but for SPP making the point weeks ago that any material improvement in the “defacto Orion navy” after independence would surely provoke a coalition attack.

It’s a case of “d*mned if you do, d*mned if you don’t.”

But this is not the place to be discussing the Orion Enclave.