I feel like it's tough to beat photon torpedoes on Tholians. Photons are notoriously dangerous at close ranges, and getting range 2 photons before your opponent can shoot back is going to be a bad time for them. Yeah, low fire rate, but at that point I think it ends up not mattering.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, January 05, 2023 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Okay, the following is just my personal opinion about the relative usefulness of disruptors, photon torpedoes, and particle cannons for the Tholians.

Early Years
Particle Cannons - Easily the best. Note that during the EY period, the Tholian ships fight like "standard tech" ships in most respects, but not quite all. Note particularly that even the Tholian DD cannot overload its disruptors during EY, but that the PCs on the NDD and NFF can be overloaded (for one shot per turn). Particle cannons are significantly better than disruptors during EY.

Disruptors - See above. The fact that the Tholians launched a complex "special ops" mission to steal disruptor technology from the Klingons, despite the clear superiority of PCs, provides pretty strong evidence that for whatever reason, Tholians just couldn't build PCs in this galaxy.

Photon torpedoes - Not an option.

"Standard Technology" Era
Photon torpedoes - These now take over the top slot, when the Tholians finally get them. Web and photon torpedoes work very well togeher, since the web helps the Tholians control the range and can also be used to (partially) protect photon-armed ships during the reloading turn. Note that the Tholians start fielding photon-armed ships about 8 years before the 312th arrives. During that time the photon ships are no worse than their disruptor counterparts in open space, and better in wedding cake defense. Once the 312th does show up, the photon-armed Tholians can also work in conjunction with web caster-equipped Neo-Tholians (or Archeo-Tholians with web caster refits) in open space.

Disruptors/Particle Cannons - In my opinion, these are approximately tied though I tend to give the disruptor a slight edge, especially once DERFACS is available for long range firing. At short and medium range a PC will do more damage per turn. But with two different firings at least 12 impulses apart, you have the issue of maybe damaging two different shields versus smashing through one shield and doing internal damage to the ship. At long range, the disruptor wins, at least for cruisers and dreadnoughts. At ranges 23-30, a PC only averages ¹/₃ damage per shot, or ²/₃ damage per turn. A DEFACS disruptor aveages 1 point of damage per turn. The wild card is that all the PCs, even on small ships, range to 30. But disruptors on small ships do not. So in a fleet action with only a couple of cruisers leading a bunch of DDs or frigates, the PCs would have better firepower at long range due to all the PCs being in the fight. But if the Tholians fielded mostly cruisers, led by a DN, the DERFACS-disruptors are better at that range. The final point is that the PC is degraded more than the disruptor when shooting against an ECM shift. So... the two are approximately tied but I give the disruptor a slight edge.

X-Tech
Photon Torpedoes - Clearly the best. They now range to 40 hexes or, at range-15 or less, can fire every turn.

Particle Cannons/Disruptors - I still regard them as nearly tied but now give the (slight) edge to the PC. The disruptor has an even bigger edge at range-30 since the disruptors on the DDX now reach that far as well. Witin oveload range the disruptors gain UIM, something the Tholians don't have prior to X-tech. But X-tech PCs can be overloaded for both shots, not just one. And the minimum delay between firings is reduced from 12 impulses to 8. Finally, while PCs are still degraded more than disruptors by an unfavorable ECM shift, they gain more by a favorable ECCM shift, something that's not relevant at the standard tech level. So... still close but at X-tech levels I believe the PC is a bit better than the disruptor.

I'm curious how others see this, and whether they agree or disagree.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2023 - 02:31 pm: Edit

I am not the hall monitor, but I am going to ask this as just another user:

We have drifted from Captain's Log pretty hard. Can this move to the Tholian topic under Tactics? (For the record, I will read it there. I like the discussion. It's just in the wrong spot.)

Again, just a request.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 05, 2023 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Indeed, in the wrong place, will be lost in future archives.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 09, 2023 - 12:48 pm: Edit

The Disruptor/Particle Cannon/Photon Torpedo discussion having migrated to the Tholian Tactics topic, I want to second (before I forget) Jay Gustason's suggestion from 28 December, for some Federation X-tech ships with plasma torpedoes. I have often thought the Feds should field a few of these to counter cloaking X-tech Romulans.

My personal preference would be for a version of the DDX with 2 photon torpedoes, 2 Type-GX drone racks, and 2 Type-L plasma torpedoes. But other hull-types or weapn configurations could alse be used. These would only be a minority of DDX-type ships and would mostly be deployed to the Romulan front, where their plasma-sabot capabilities would be very useful against cloaking opponents.

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 06:29 am: Edit

Like to see the unpublished Omega races Jindarian freehold Echrrai dynasty Omega x tech rules

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 07:17 pm: Edit

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Like to see the unpublished Omega races Jindarian freehold Echrrai dynasty Omega x tech rules

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 05:46 pm: Edit

If recent issues of Captain's Log are anything to go by, the main issue at hand is how much a given "Omega's Lost Futures" faction needs to be made functional.

Of the two recent examples, the Zosman Marauders have only one "new" system (the Stealth field); they otherwise use weapons and systems salvaged from various "on-map" Omega empires. Which is not to downplay the importance of getting the Stealth field right by any means, but rather to refer to the "page count" required to get the Zosmans up and running for playtest purposes.

As for the Omega-Paravians, their playtest antiproton variants in Captain's Log #54 do not need any new weapon or system rules in order for would-be playtesters to make use of them. Although, just as the Zosmans got an "update" file in CL52, I would welcome an equivalent file which put these variants in their proper context.

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Other "Omega's Lost Futures" vary widely in terms of how much new material they would require - and, thus, how practical (or not) it would be to consider them for future issues of Captain's Log.

In the case of the Jindarian Freehold, I'd argue that, as is the case for the Jindarians of the LMC, they should get the "pre-Y1" asteroid and "metal-hull" ships by default. That would leave two follow-on questions: do they develop any "post-Y1" units in parallel to their Alpha Octant counterparts? And are there any units they adopt using technologies unique to Omega, such as "volatile warp" PFs?

On the other hand, the Echarri Dynasty would need a lot more design time, since their rules and SSDs would have to either be drawn up from scratch, or (as Bruce Graw considered in his CL36 article) lifted from one or more of the "new empire" design proposals floating about. In either case, this might be too much to ask for, in terms of the page count limitations involved.

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As for new units for the currently published set of Omega empires:

Certain unit types, such as sample war cruisers and war destroyers, would not require any new weapon or system rules to be written.

Sample Omega X1-ships, on the other hand, would require a closer look at what makes Omega X-tech different from Alpha X-tech (or, in the case of the Federal Republic of Aurora, what X-tech might develop in parallel to that in Alpha), plus rules for X-versions of whichever weapons and systems were to be featured to start with.

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In short, while I certainly hope to see more non-Alpha material in Captain's Log going forward, the page count limitations involved might favour certain avenues of development over others.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Personally? I'd love to see a LOT more Omega stuff. Major bases, logistics and support ships (everybody's tugs, for instance), and survey ships are just a few things.

HOWEVER, as SVC has posted, Omega doesn't have much more than a small fraction of the draw that "The Big Three" (Feds, Klingons, and Romulans) have.

As a disclaimer, I'm not an ADB, Inc. employee, so this is really nothing more than the opinion of one (rather dingbat of a) fan, but it does look to me that the time Our Hosts would have to spend putting stuff like that together up to their standards of quality would probably be more than what its return would justify.

While I'd like to help out, I know already that the ADB quality standards are such that my "Assistance" would probably take more time to clean up than if they were to do the projects themselves.

Ahh, but the thought of a Koligahr Starbase, with more bubbles than the head of a Brewski, an Alunda Starbase that's a life form so fat it's even larger than my mother-in-law, a Chlorophon Starbase that's a whole forest, and a Sigvirion Starbase so big it's sick...

(WHAANNNNGG!!!)

Ouch!

Anyway, while these are things I'd love to see, and indeed would be honored to try and bring to the game, I recognize that they'd all require a heckuvalotta work to do RIGHT and the interest at large is probably tepid at best.

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Thursday, February 02, 2023 - 05:56 am: Edit

Like to see the class history of the wyn auxiliary a DN

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Friday, February 03, 2023 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Federation police cutter plasma torpedoes

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Friday, February 03, 2023 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Has there ever been an article about a federation ship converted to Gorn tech and vicea versa

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Friday, February 03, 2023 - 10:55 pm: Edit

Brother of the Anarchist Federation vs Gorn CL37. Gorn vs Federation not yet.

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 01:09 am: Edit

Wasn’t sure thanks let’s see fed CA photons replaced with plasma s’s four lab boxes replaced with apr shuttles all GAS

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 01:13 am: Edit

Fed CA photons to plasma s’s four lab to APR no other changes

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 11:20 am: Edit

Brothers of the Anarchist always covers both ways.

So, check that CL and you get both.

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 11:26 am: Edit

Love to see a story where the federation gives federation ships that were mothballed and the feds get a Gorn CA

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 12:24 pm: Edit

The Klingon converting a Fed is the bestest. Take a D7C and swap the Disruptors for Photons. mmmm

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 01:41 pm: Edit

How about a B10

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 04:01 pm: Edit

A D7C with Fed technology would be a good ship, but it would only ever exist as the result of the Feds capturing the base hull.

On the other hand, given the comparative sizes of the economies, one could construct a semi-plausible scenario for the Feds actually building hulls for the Gorns (or Kzinti) and turning them over for the end-users to outfit with their own weapon systems.

During WW2 the U.S. supplied both the British and the Soviets with some weapon systems, because of our enormous industrial capacity. Probably the best known example (but by no means the only one) was the extensive use the British made of the M4 Sherman tank.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 04:14 pm: Edit

On further consideration, perhaps the most likely candidate for a hull deliberately built for allied use would be the Fed NCL. The Feds built the basic hull in enormous numbers, and the ship is powerful enough that even a few would make a significant increase in Gorn or Kzinti fleet strength.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 04:32 pm: Edit

I should note that there are historical samples of "lost" Klingon ships (as well as a wayward Lyran ship) being converted to Federal Republic of Aurora technologies, courtesy of Captain's Log #53. Indeed, one of those sips would serve as the partial template for the FRA's "hybrid" destroyer design, as published in SFB Module Omega #3.

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Guys I am pretty sure "Export/Lend Lease Ships" are on the Auto Reject List.

By Jay Gustason (Jay20) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Wyn federation CA heavily modified

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 06:09 pm: Edit

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Guys I am pretty sure "Export/Lend Lease Ships" are on the Auto Reject List.

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