Jeff Wile, regarding cross-training ... that's more of an enlisted thing. Command-line officers tend to be a Jack-of-all-trades, not really specializing in any one job. (Once someone becomes an engineer, they do tend to stay to in the back of the boat.) One requirement is all officers (save perhaps medical) must be rated shuttle pilots. To move up the ranks, all must be certified in either weapons or tac-team leaders; many are both. Intel, Ops, Exec, and Captain are all command-rated positions, with appropriate training courses.

For enlisted troops, they must be certified in their primary rating (job title) to make Petty Officer Third (E-4). To make PO1 (E-6), they must be cross-certified into another rating, albeit perhaps not to the same level of ability as someone in said rating. Most Chiefs are cross-trained into two or three other jobs. There's always a demand for people with some training in emergency medical, so that might be worth bonus points in the promotion system.

One question I get a lot is "why have dedicated weapons crew?", usually followed by the example of cooks manning guns during WW-2. The thing is, those cooks manned small, defensive guns such as the Quad-40. not the big 16" guns. I believe that Trek-era weapons require a lot of technical training and practice. It would be far easier to teach a Gunner's Mate out to pull KP duty than it would be to teach a cook how to load/arm/aim/fire a photon torpedo. Obviously, a cook might want to cross-train into weapons.

Another option is re-training, which is when a enlisted troop changed their primary rating to a new job. For example, that cook who wants to become a Gunner's Mate. Also, I figure most of the engineering crew start out as Boatswain's Mates (a general Jack-of-all-trade sailor) and later takes up a specialty such as electrician or plumber.


Garth L. Getgen

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, April 07, 2020 - 08:56 pm: Edit

One of my uncles was on the USS Bunker Hill in '53...
Don't know his rating, though he ended up as a Gun Chief on a 5" mount...
Had story of downing the Plane towing the Target..
Another of hitting the target sled with first salvo, was supposed to be short, over then on target....

Gunnery definitely shouldn't be a, grab the first person available thing.....

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, April 07, 2020 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Garth Getgen:

The term “mustang officer” is a slang term for promoting an enlisted man (most often a nco,) but there are records indicating that In certain circumstances private soldiers have been granted battlefield promotions. Granted, some of these situations date back to the American revolution, civil war and some Indian campaigns.

Abraham Lincoln was voted into an officers position, (rank of captain of militia company, Illinois militia, black hawk Indian war.) by the majority of volunteers in his company. There were some other officers who were granted commissions who never attended any military school or served in the military in any capacity prior to being commissioned.

Do not disregard the example of Audie Murphy. If you do not know the story, you should. He was not unique in the American army, nor to military history.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 09:11 am: Edit

Come on, Jeff. I know what a mustang is, although I can't say I've ever heard in applied to a USAF officer. My wife was Navy, and I did hear the term applied to a couple of her officers. I heard it a few times, usually not in a good way, when I was stationed with the Army, too. In my experience (26 years active duty), prior-enlisted officers are either very good to work for, or very very bad. There's usually not much middle ground there.

In my cast of characters for my fiction writing, I have 15 officers in the crew, four of which are prior-enlisted.

I know Audie Murphy's story. My mom had a big crush on him when she was in high school, so any time he was in a movie on TV, she'd tell us all about him ... again. But I'm not sure a battlefield promotion is quite the same thing as being a mustang.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Come on Garth, I know what Cross Training is.

And having nearly a quarter of the officers in the ward room of a POL seems a little excessive. Not saying it can not happen, just that in a service with a history of Academy trained officers, the common presumption is that most officers assigned to ships (Star Fleet or Police) would be graduates of SFA.

To be honest, I do not recall if any published data in SFU defines just how many non academy officers serve in Star Fleet. Now, if you are saying that it’s common for enlisted to get spot promotions that would normally require a full commissioned officer, I have no data to argue the point.

I do know there was a fiction piece published in an early captains log about a female (I think it was exec of a Klingon Cruiser) who’s captain preferred male office4s, and even might have had noncommissioned officers assigned to stations that normally would be filled by officers.

TOS even mentioned in an episode that at least one freighter captain was a Academy “washout”.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Just did a quick internet search, and between the start of WW1 and the end of the Vietnam War, 31,200 battlefield commissions were made.

One of the web sites I looked at, made the observation, that today, an enlisted man is more likely to be awarded the Medal of Honor than to receive a battle field commission. (They specified the U.S. Army or U.S. Marine Corps. No idea what the Air Force does.)

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 07:21 pm: Edit

My grandfather was pulled out of enlisted basic training and commissioned as a 2LT. He got to China and a month or so later he was directly promoted to LTC. Those were the only 3 ranks he ever held in the USAAC.

His brother, my uncle chip, was yanked out of basic at the same time and also commissioned as a 2LT for China. About 2 weeks later Stilwell said something like "I don't need two AirCorps interpreters; YOU (pointing at uncle chip) are in the Navy now." So he became a "Navy Deception Officer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._W._Grafton

They were both pretty cool guys.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Stilwell was an interesting case study.

Legend has it, that Marshall and FDR had two high priority command billets to fill. one was China. the Other was north Africa. The two officers under consideration were Stillwell and an Armor officer known as George Patton.

Stillwell spoke Chinese like a native speaker. Patton spoke French.

Apparently the language skills acted as the tie breaker.

Imagine how history would have changed if Stillwell had been given command of the western task force?

Or... maybe not. Stillwell is said to have a temper, and was less diplomatic than Patton.

yMMV.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 03:34 pm: Edit

There is data in Prime Directive Federation which looks at how Star Fleet handles reservists, personnel transfers to (and from) the various National Guards, auxiliary officers, and "warrant officers".

Some of this also pops up in the A Call to Arms cover story in Captain's Log #44.

That said, while there is a degree of co-ordination between Star Fleet and the various National Guards in terms of personnel transfers, it's less clear as to what extent the Federation Police stands apart from either service in that regard.


On a side note, there is a book by John Pomfret called The Beautiful Country and the Middle Kingdom: America and China, 1776 to the Present; part of which looks at the challenges faced by both sides of the relationship between the ROC and the USA during the Second World War.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 04:09 pm: Edit

I will look into it.

The official history of the United States Army (and there is at least two volumes dealing with the history Between the ROC and the U.S. Army) does not portray the ROC in a favorable light, nor do Stillwells public and diary entries.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 07:31 pm: Edit

My grandfather after the war was dragged to the (new) pentagon and ordered to do a complete intel briefing on China (it was civil war, again, by then).

He concluded the communists would win. Because the Nationalists were so corrupt.

He told me that they couldn't get him out of the Pentagon fast enough once he said the commies would win...

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 07:51 pm: Edit

From items I've read, US had an Advisor with both Mao and Ho Chi Minh.. Pulled them out to support Chiang Kai-shek and the French....
We know the story from there....

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Shift rotations: When I designed the crew roster, I knew that there are duty positions that need to be manned 24/7, and those that are as-needed, and those that can normally be accomplished in a Mon-Fri day-shift schedule.

Let's look at the 24/7 billets. These are the Bridge and Engine Room. I assume that the Bridge must have five people on-duty: Watch Officer, Helm, Nav, Sensors, Comms. I'll talk more about the watch officer below. The ship has, as I'm sure you remember, three control centers (Bridge, Emergency Bridge, & Auxiliary Control). During routine patrols, only the main bridge is manned. But having three control centers means the ship needs at least three four-man teams, so it lends itself easily to a duty-shift schedule.

I based my plan on the idea of three eight-hour shifts per day, with teams staying on the same shift -- Days/Swings/Mids (aka First/Second/Third) -- without flipping around the clock. They would have no days off, working seven days a week. Additionally, they would have to be available for gym time / certification training / emergency drills / work details (e.g., KP duty) for up to four hours per day, up to five days per week.

The non-sleeping / off-duty team will be on alert to man the Aux-Con at the discretion of the Watch Officer during action-stations such as routine boarding/inspection of civilian freighters and such. The sleeping team would be recalled to man the Emergency Bridge during Red Alert combat actions. (The captain may dictate that he wants his "best helmsman" or "best sensor tech" on the bridge for battle regardless of this schedule.)

Similarly, the Engine Room will have a four-man team on-duty 24/7: two Warp Drive Techs, and one each Impulse Engine Tech and Auxiliary Reactor Tech. During combat, two teams will work in the engine room, and the third will attach to the Damage Control teams. They would also work a rotating shift pattern. (With only two Engineering officers in the roster, the third supervisory shift would be covered by a Chief Petty Officer.)

With four five-man Tac-Teams (aka Boarding Party), there will typically be one team on-duty for general ship's security, also working a shift rotation, with the rest on-call as needed.

The weapons department may have, depending on the ship's mission requirements, one two-man phaser team on duty 24/7, but the photon torpedo will be manned as-needed. Again, with three Phasers, there are three two-man teams to work the shift schedule. Likewise, the shuttle bay and Sick Bay will be manned as-needed. Ditto for transporters. Some jobs, e.g., yeoman or computer tech, are normally done on a M-F day schedule. With only two Mess Mates (cooks) in the roster, several Crewmen & junior Petty Officers will be tasked with KP duty every meal cycle -- Weapons and Tac-Teams have the most down-time and thus tend to pull a lot of KP duty.


As I said, my plan was three shifts per day: 0000-0800 / 0800-1600 / 1600-2400. There are many other options to choose from. I have worked a four-on/two-off or two-on/one-off twelve-hour schedule. These would typically be 0000-1200/1200-2400 or 0600-1800/1800-0600. This involves flipping from days to nights and back each set:

Team 1: D-D-D-D-x-x-N-N-N-N-x-x-D-D-D-D....
Team 2: N-N-x-x-D-D-D-D-x-x-N-N-N-N-x-x....
Team 3: x-x-N-N-N-N-x-x-D-D-D-D-x-x-N-N....

Another option is to use the standard Navy "dog watch" schedule with five four-hour shifts plus two-two-hours shifts per day: 0000-0400/0400-0800/0800-1200/1200-1600/1600-1800/1800-2000/2000-2400. This schedule works with three teams (like on the POL and FFG) and with four or five teams (as on larger ships in Star Fleet).

I came up with a variation using three six hour and two three-hour shifts: 0000-0600/0600-1200/1200-1500/1500-2100/2100-2400. Note that it has to be 6-6-3-6-3; it doesn't work well as 6-6-6-3-3. This works for three or four teams, but not five as nobody would change shifts.

There are many other options for the ship's captain & Chief of the Boat to pick from. Some only work for larger ships with four, five, or even six teams to put in the rotation.

Almost forgot to talk about the Bridge Watch Officer. With six to eight certified officers available, they would work half-shifts or every-other shift in the Center Seat. Often the schedule will be a bit lopsided giving more chair time to the shuttle pilots and weapons & tactical officers, freeing the captain's / exec's time for the endless paperwork that comes with command.


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, April 11, 2020 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Garth L. Getgen:

It is pretty much established that the bridge weapons station can fire any of the weapons on the ship. So minimal weapons manning would be some personnel from the weapons department as part of the watch.

The other issue is that anyone in an "active" station (such as the gunnery department) would not be doing their shifts at the phaser controls for their give phaser mount, but might be pulling maintenance on some other system.

There are different ways of running the shifts. Captains have paper work to do and may not be on the bridge during their nominal duty time.

So you might have each of your "command teams" pull their duty shift in their "Combat Station," which is more efficient when a red alert is called when the Romulan BattleHawk suddenly uncloaks right in front of you. You do not want members of the Emergency Bridge crew scrambling to get off the primary bridge and down to the Emergency Bridge when that happens. You want them at their stations ready to hand off to the main bridge when the primary crew gets there (or perhaps to Aux Con if the primary bridge was take out n the first shot, it can work the other way). When the bridge is not manned, it might be undergoing maintenance (we had to actually pull the Helm console apart to fix the short in the maneuvering thrusters controls).

Keep in mind that while traditions may descend from "planet based militaries" there is no real reason that the third shift crew cannot be the regular Emergency Bridge Crew and simply con the ship from there when they are on shift. But the established fact that the ships guns can be controlled from the bridge means there should be someone from the gunnery department present on each shift to handle that task until all the guns are manned, even if until then all he is really doing is targeting all available fire power on one enemy ship at a time.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, April 11, 2020 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Petrick: I'm fine with the 2-man Weapons Ready crew being on the bridge instead of in one of the phaser control rooms. I'd prefer to have them in the Phaser Control in case they have to do manual overrides of the Phaser mount. Not sure if the 360 makes more sense, or the forward control where they'd have quicker access to both FA+L & FA+R mounts.

Yes, the rest of the weapons department will perform daily systems checks on all weapons, which should eat up the bulk of their shift time. They don't sit around playing cards waiting for a bad guy to show up.


As to where each command shift pulls duty, again, that can go either way. They can have all teams work on the main bridge during routine patrol, and then the first on-call (non-sleeping) team goes to AuxCon and the second (sleeping) team wakes up and goes to the EMER. This means that is something kicks off in the middle of the night, the day shift goes to the EMER.

Or as you suggested, they can have First Shift (days) work from the main bridge, Second (swings) work in AuxCon, and the Third (nights) work in EMER. When the other teams are recalled, they'd go to their normal stations.

It would depend on how the ship's captain wants to work it.

Another thing I was thinking is that when the ship is in a high-traffic area and there's a lot of chatter going on, the comms and sensor techs might work from AuxCon while the Watch Officer, Helm & Nav work on the main bridge. Again, just an option for the CO to consider.


As to the captain not sitting in the center seat all the time .... I just said that in the post above yours.

If this was a larger ship, you'd have three to five officers (aka Navigators) whose primary duty is to stand Bridge Watch. If something kicks off, the Captain takes the ship. (Might be why there were a few times we saw Sulu jump out of the center seat when Kirk & Spock walked onto the bridge.) As this ship's crew roster is too small, all rated officers pull watch duty. Junior officers probably get more time in the chair which the CO & XO are doing paperwork.

Up-topic, someone suggested that Chiefs might be rated to stand Bridge Watch. I see nothing wrong with that plan.

Another question is "Does the watch officer actually have to be on the bridge?" Could the officer be in his/her officer doing paperwork, ready to run to the bridge if his/her presence is required?? Bear in mind that the Bridge is on Deck Three (AuxCon is on Deck Six) and the admin offices are on Deck Four.


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, April 11, 2020 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Garth Getgen:

The head of the weapon department can override and fire any weapon (except personal weapons of course) on the ship from his station. Phaser crew #1 cannot override phaser crew #2 or the drone rack or the photon.

We are not disagreeing on the captain, only that he cannot be on a shift. He has duties that include inspections. So someone has to fill the shift and if the captain arrives on the bridge at any time he may take the center seat. He might do si on any shift because he is overseeing the training and performance of all his command officers.

As to going to action stations, it seems like you save a lot of time if people go straight to their action stations instead of waiting on the bridge to be relieved before running to their own station.

If the emergency bridge shift is on duty in the emergency bridge, they stay in place running the ship until the main bridge signals it is ready to take over.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, June 02, 2020 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Okay, I've been thinking long and hard about Petrick's post of 11 April 2020. Let's see if I can put my thoughts into words....


1) In my world-view, the three phaser control stations are linked. Heck, two of them are in the same room. There are NOT linked to the Photon. If the SVC/SPP world-view is that they are not linked, so be it. I do have to wonder, tho, if one man on the bridge has full control over all three phasers and the photon (plus the refit Phaser-III and drone), why do we need two-man controls for each phaser......

2) Regarding Captain / XO not pulling Bridge Watch shift ... there just aren't enough bodies to go around to allow them to not pull shifts. Yes, the majority of the shifts will be covered by two shuttle pilots, the weapons officer, and the intel officer. But they do have 'day jobs', so there's no option but to force the CO/XO/Ops to pull Bridge Watch occasionally. I'll bet they'll pull rank and take only day-shifts.

This is another factor in why I suggested the Flower-class 'vette needs a crew of 120 -- it will allow for the addition of three Navigator officers whose primary job is Bridge Watch duty.

3) The idea that the Main Bridge would be manned during Day shift, the Aux-Con during Swing shift, and the Emergency Bridge during Night shift doesn't make sense to me. Switching the action control center three times per day makes shift hand-off harder. There is no basis for it in any SFU fiction. (Yes, I know the story about the Klingon ship and the female First Officer being shunted to the wrong battle station. However, that was the three command officers and not the entire bridge team.) It was never done that way in any of the TV shows, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way in the real US Navy. And remember that however it's done, it would apply not only to the Police boats but also to all Federation Star Fleet ships.

We're making drastically different assumptions. We have Helmsmen Dixon, Smith, and Miller. You're saying that Dixon works the Main Bridge during the day, so that's his action station evenings and nights. Smith's action station is Aux-Con, so that's where he works during swing shift; and Miller work nights in EMER mid-shift because that's his action station.

I"m saying that all three work the Main Bridge during their respective shifts: Dixon on days, Smith on swings, and Miller on mids. When Dixon gets off shift, he knows his action station for the afternoon/evening is now the Aux-Con. If he's woken up in the middle of the night, he goes to EMER. Likewise, Smith works Main Bridge during swings, and is on-call for Aux-Con during Mids and EMER for day shift; and of course Miller works mid-shift and is on-call for Aux-Con during days and EMER in the afternoon. Whoever is on the Bridge stays on the Bridge during Red Alert. Of course, I'm talking about the enlisted team. The CO's station is always the main bridge, and I presume the XO's is Aux-Con and Ops is EMER.

I suppose there is logic and pros-&-cons to either system. Presumable, some captains may opt for your way of during things. I would not, if I were the captain.

4) I recently noticed on my crew roster that I have a Computer Operations Tech in the lab, and a Data Systems Tech in Damage-Control. I have no idea why I did that. Modern day USAF and Navy (and I believe Army, too) have combined all computer career fields into one single AFSC / MOS. I would presume Star Fleet would do the same. For now, I'm going to leave it as-is. I do see the use of having more than one computer tech on-board.

5) I've been binge-watching Inspector Morse & Inspector Lewis on DVD, and it occurred to me that we have not defined a Detective Branch of the Federation Space Police. I presume that for investigations of major crimes, the FLAG frigate would be called in. But which officer would double as the Inspector on a Cutter?? Would that be the Captain? Or the Intel Officer? Interesting question, no??


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, January 17, 2021 - 12:19 am: Edit

I just figured out how to make an Org Chart in Excel, so I made this one for the Federation Police Cutter's command chain.

There may be minor variations on this, depending on the relative ranks of each officer. For example, Tactical might go under Ops, or Science and Intel might be equals.

I might try to build a similar chart with the enlisted crew listed, although it might be too busy with ~100 positions listed.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 17, 2021 - 10:08 am: Edit

I have seen other similar charts.

Here, you have the X.O. In a subordinate position equal to the department heads.

An alternative structure would place the X.O. Between the captain and the department heads. The exec normally supervises the running of the ship, the captain needs to be aware of where and what the ship is doing.

I have also seen examples where the chief (COB)(boatswain) reports to the X.O. Instead of directly to the captain.

guess it’s up to the personal taste of the captain. The exec runs the ship day to day, the skippers vision needs to be broader in that he is aware of the situation surrounding the ship, not consumed by the day to day details of running the ship.

You don’t need the skipper supervising the detail swabbing the decks while the helmsman is asleep at his station and the ship is on course for the nearest star...

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, January 17, 2021 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Jeff, yeah, as I said, there could be minor variations on the theme, such as this one. I left the Doctor and the CoB as directly under the Captain because those two people should have the Captain's ear.

Technically, I wanted the CoB to be to the right of the Captain with a dashed line connecting them, but I wasn't able to do that due to limitations of the software and/or the user. Otherwise, I think I like this version better than the first.

The CoB (in my world view of the Federation Police Cutter) is not necessarily a Boatswain, but rather is the ranking Chief Petty Officer as an additional duty, not their full-time job. The billet is rated for a Senior Chief (E-8), but sometimes is filled by a CPO/E-7. Operationally, the CoB will reports to whichever officer runs his section ... could be engineering, weapons, tactical, or bridge-ops.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, January 17, 2021 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Okay, this is what I was trying to do, and I think this is what Jeff suggested. Neither one if any more "wrong" or "right" than the other.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 17, 2021 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Both seem okay.

As a foot note, TOS had the exec also be the Science officer.

For surveys and specialized research (as in developing vaccines on an emergency basis) Spock on occasion combined the ships resources of both the sciences dept as well as medical.

Right or wrong, Spock certainly seemed to have the ability to manage large groups of people better than McCoy. At times, the “ships senior medical officer” could be a very good researcher, or fair psychologist and a resourceful bartender.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, January 17, 2021 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Spock was a special case. I believe it would be highly usual for the First Officer to wear a second hat as head of a department in any navy / space navy.

By the way, my wife looked it up: according to her old Blue Jacket's Manual, the Chief of the Boat is typically rated by the CO, not the XO.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, January 18, 2021 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Final version, just to make it pretty.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, January 19, 2021 - 07:11 pm: Edit

I just wanted to see what it looked like, so I built a Police Cutter crew Org-Chart. Please note, however, that this one is padded with about twenty-five extra crew members, including civilian scientists.

The Chief of the Boat has a star by the title because the CoB is dual-hatted as the CPO in one of the duty sections. One perhaps two of the four people with an asterisk (*) listed under the Intel Officer is a CPO; the others with an asterisk are Petty Officer First Class.


Garth L. Getgen