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By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, September 19, 2022 - 06:57 am: Edit

Jeff

Your missing the drowning...

But Rapsutin is a good example of how sometimes, the individual breaks the odds of something several times in row...

....but ultimately it didn't make a difference.

On the original point though - Jean does an excellent job of 'policing the police'.

We all can feel 'our point' is the most valid one - and the written word often ISN'T the best way to explain anything and often personal opinion and poor grammar can make a message read different to how it was intended. And SVC (and SPP) also do an excellent job in knowing their own limitations in such matters.

Once your emotionally attached to something, changing a course of direction is not easy.

Which probably does lead to a joke.

Two alligators munch on something... and one says

"What does your's taste like?"

"Texan, taste's like Chicken...what does your Brit taste of......."

By John Williams (Johndw) on Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Here's my current general idea for fixing student loans.

Stop giving out unlimited/untested student loans to everyone. Get rid of compound interest on loans. Adjust the remaining loan amount for inflation every year. And set a limit of 10% return for loans instead of whatever we have going now where people can end up paying double or triple their loan amount because of bad choices.
That fixes Student loans for the future and limits some burden from current loans.

But to help with current student loan debt:

End the social security system, give everyone who paid money into it a full refund with some additional interest, people with student loans get this amount reduced by their loan debt so that their student loans get paid off, and if they have any student loan debt left over after this, at least they will have bigger pay checks because no more social security will be taken from their paychecks so they will be able to pay off their loans better.
Bam, current and future student loan debt fixed.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 21, 2022 - 01:06 am: Edit

John, a few thoughts...

JW: Stop giving out unlimited/untested student loans to everyone.
SVC: Here here!

JW: Get rid of compound interest on loans.
SVC: There will be no student loans (since the banks making them would lose money if they could not charge interest on unpaid interest). If you mean for the government to do this, you just dumped a ton of debt on the taxpayers since the government has to borrow the money to make student loans.

JW: Adjust the remaining loan amount for inflation every year.
SVC: There will be no student loans (since the banks making them would lose money if they were forced to take a haircut each year). If you mean for the government to do this, you just dumped a ton of debt on the taxpayers since the government has to borrow the money to make student loans.

JW: And set a limit of 10% return for loans instead of whatever we have going now where people can end up paying double or triple their loan amount because of bad choices.
SVC: There will be no student loans (since the banks making them would lose money if their return was limited like this). If you mean for the government to do this, you just dumped a ton of debt on the taxpayers since the government has to borrow the money to make student loans.

JW: That fixes Student loans for the future and limits some burden from current loans.
SVC: Not really, it just transfers a bunch of the cost to the taxpayer.

JW: But to help with current student loan debt:
End the social security system, give everyone who paid money into it a full refund with some additional interest,
SVC: Impossible. There is ZERO money in the kitty to make this happen. You're saying for the government to go borrow $30 trillion dollars (doubling the national debt and bankrupting the country).

JW: people with student loans get this amount reduced by their loan debt so that their student loans get paid off, and if they have any student loan debt left over after this, at least they will have bigger pay checks because no more social security will be taken from their paychecks so they will be able to pay off their loans better.
Bam, current and future student loan debt fixed.
SVC: other than the fact that the government could not find anyone to buy the bonds to borrow the money for those full refunds.

Nice try, but the system is hard wired to prevent such easy solutions.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, September 22, 2022 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Some Businesses over the decades have paid employees student loans.....

At one point there was a discussion ('80/'90s), of the Government matching student loan payments...
Better idea than what's happening now....

At least 13 states have declared they will tax the payouts.... Gift tax in most places are ridiculously high....

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, September 22, 2022 - 04:47 pm: Edit

I know one firm in the UK (KPMG IIRC), was offering a Supported University Degree.

Basically, for those who could get on it, it would turn a 3 year Degree Course into a 5 year course.

Year 1 - Uni
Year 2 - Work Placement
Year 3 & 4 - Complete Uni Course
Year 5 - Work Placement (IIRC).

The pay allowed the course to in effect be self funded - yes, the Trainee for the second year was an office junior in effect, but at the end of the 5 years they should have a good grounding in the practical side of Accountancy AND have a relevant degree.

Perhaps is more Employers (like Armed Forces) said 'agree to work for us for X years, we will pay the course fees' people would be more aware, what Degree's was worth it.... and which ones aren't AND avoid leaving Uni with a huge debt.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, September 23, 2022 - 10:15 am: Edit

What we need is apprenticeship as the general rule of education. University education should only be for those who want to sail in the clouds of high academic thought or fundamental research, and then you either have to pay for it or have to demonstrate such facility for that kind of abstract and high-level work that the government pays your way.

The VAST majority of jobs can be learned by 1) a few years in a tech school to get the basics and 2) apprenticeship under a licensed master who teaches you how it's really done on the job.

This includes all kinds of work that currently requires university degrees:
Doctor
Lawyer
Administrator/management
Sales
Business
Computer programmer
IT Tech
Construction (already is vaguely master-apprentice setup)

The list goes on and on and on. You'd really only need full university training for jobs like research scientist, historian, etc.

This will largely wipe out the need for student loans - period. Over time the total student loan debt will go down into the noise of other kinds of debt, because you're not actually taking on debt in the first place (or if you do, it is a modest debt for the tech school phase of training).

The *system* is broken, and skewed in favor of lining the pockets of universities and lenders. So we have to change the system. Not small band-aid fixes, but societal level changes in terms of how education gets done.

I've mentioned this before on this thread - student loans ruined my financial life. I had about $100K of student loans from going to law school in my mid 20's, and only now in my 50's have I paid them off - and it took selling my house to do it. And I am a patent lawyer that makes substantially more than the median income in the U.S.

Those loans were not necessary. My job does NOT require a post-graduate education. It requires trade-level training, and honestly an apprenticeship period is still required even after law school. So skip the intervening and unnecessary crap. Go to school for 2 years to learn the basics, and then apprentice yourself to a master to learn how the job is actually done.

There is, of course, still the problem of what to do about the people who are still burdened with student loans. Frankly, I say they need to pay them off by living very frugally and working hard. I did. It might not be popular to say that folks need to take responsibility, but folks need to take responsibility for their choices.

The most I'd do is give interest rate breaks to debters who are having trouble, or maybe forbearance periods for those who get laid off where interest doesn't accumulate (or accumulates more slowly). Otherwise, get creative and find a way to pay it off without whining about it.

The other thing to do is to put a hard cap on tuition fees at public institutions. I have a daughter in college, and I am appalled at the amount of money being spent on swank new buildings, lavish parties, perks, and all kinds of unnecessary crap. Stop funding the waste.

It makes me angry that I'm unable to save because I have to pay for my daughters post secondary education at the rate of about $25K per year - and that is CHEAP compared to many places she could have gone, mostly on account of the scholarships she earned. That also includes her living expenses, which means she is living very frugally (which I appreciate greatly), but honestly it's unnecessary and way way too expensive.

I wouldn't have wanted her to go at all because she's not interested in an academic career, but because of the way our society is - you have to have a college degree just to get a decent job. THAT is the mindset that has to change. If you send the vast majority of young people to tech/trade schools with apprenticeship programs, the whole ponzi scheme of the university system will collapse - for the good.

Due to a heart condition my older daughter was disqualified from military service. However, my younger daughter is still in 7th grade. Steph and I are encouraging her to prepare to enter military service where she can earn her college education (or a large part of it) and learn a trade while on the job and being paid. She won't earn a lot in the military, but she will learn skills and earn the GI bill, and that will make both her life and mine much better - AND it will serve this great country of ours. We'll see how it goes.

Sorry for the rant, but this issue has literally dominated my whole life.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Friday, September 23, 2022 - 12:25 pm: Edit

There are programs where a student can graduate from High School while also completing an Associates Degree....
A Degree which will put students ahead of College Freshman, eliminating many classes such as Math, English etc....

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, September 23, 2022 - 02:23 pm: Edit

@Mark. Yes. My older daughter didn't have access to a full AA in high school, but she was offered plenty of AP tests and a bunch of dual credit courses, which she took full advantage of. So, she entered Wichita State at a point roughly half-way through her sophomore year (from a credit perspective).

Made her daddy quite happy...

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Friday, September 23, 2022 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Both my kids took great advantage of the AP exams. Yes, they cost money to get, but they were significantly cheaper than the cost of college. We, also, set aside significant funds as they were growing up into 529 plans for each so that they had a large sum of funds to draw from for college.

One has graduated with ZERO debt and the other will do the same next spring. I want my 10k back for each of them for the good planning we did instead of getting student loans. Should come from the schools as they are overpriced, anyways.

Not going to go further than this as I like to keep my toes.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, September 23, 2022 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Well done, Mike!

I wasn't able to do 529 plans, but so far so good at keeping my older one debt free for undergrad. Should be able to do the same for the younger. It will cost me heavily, but I'd rather launch the next generation without the albatross around the neck, and deal with the financial issues myself.

By Michael F Guntly (Ares) on Friday, September 23, 2022 - 09:51 pm: Edit

We were a 5 person, 1 income family and did not have the means to contribute to 529 plans while kids were growing up. But my wife went back to work part time when the oldest was in high school, the intent being all of her take home went to the "college" fund for the 3 of them.

All 3 girls took all the AP and CC classes they wanted in high school. They all chose to go to Missouri S&T between 2004 and 2013. They all received 4-year merit scholarships of $8,000-10,000 per year when a year's tuition, room & board, other, etc. ran $15,000-17,000. Thus we had money left over for each of them for us to contribute toward their first auto as they headed to their first job. And they all graduated in 4 years while participating in undergraduate research (paid) and internship/co-ops (for pay), so they all had money to their name when they started working (and no debt). And the college fund had money left over for the parents! (thanks, kids, for your efforts)

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, September 24, 2022 - 10:56 am: Edit

The military are NOT underpaid. Sure as a private you don't get much cash; but you DO get a free place to live, free food and work clothes. The problem is that many HAVE to buy a Mustang (etc) at outrageous interest. Certainly you are making more than someone working at 7/11. And the military PAY you while you are in school. Pay for the school, etc.

https://www.dfas.mil/Portals/98/Documents/militarymembers/militarymembers/pay-tables/2022%20Military%20Pay%20Tables.pdf?ver=eyZKK478XVelcSQoEG7xFA%3d%3d

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, September 24, 2022 - 11:09 am: Edit

and work clothes.

Only your first set, you get a stipend, but uniforms aren't cheap, depending on job and location boots wear out pretty quick...

Don't forget the international travel.....
Got to see almost 10 countries without ever having a Passport....

You would have to remind me, I started out at $405...

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, September 25, 2022 - 12:17 pm: Edit

And the amazing leave/ vacation allowances.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Sunday, September 25, 2022 - 12:33 pm: Edit

And the amazing leave/ vacation allowances.

When I retired in '99, I took about 14 days leave...
While selling 59.5 days back to the Army....
Two months salary in the bank was great.....

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 26, 2022 - 11:09 am: Edit

@MIke: Very well. Even better.

By Joseph Jackson (Bonneville) on Tuesday, October 11, 2022 - 10:20 am: Edit

I'm posting this here because student loans make me think of school, and school makes me think of lunch, and that makes me wonder if a Star Fleet Universe lunch pail is a possibility. Along with the usual accessories: SFU zippo lighter, decoder ring, and underoos.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Tuesday, October 11, 2022 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Mark, in talking about not having a passport, I remember being amazed that my military ID got me all the way from an exercise in Australia back to Alabama with no issues at all back in 2007. No other paperwork or ID was needed or asked for.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 - 10:55 am: Edit

The best way to pay student loans is to get the least of them possible. Take as many college courses as you can during high school. Go to two years of community college while living at home with the folks. Work summer jobs and weekend jobs, and/or apply for every scholarship you can find. Go to an in-state public university. Get a degree that leads to a job. You're in school to get a degree not to get invited to parties so load up on courses, study diligently, hold back on the partying, and get out of there in as few years as possible. Do NOT use student loans to pay for vacations, fancy clothes, or an expensive car.

Seriously consider if you really want to go to college. Diesel mechanics, carpenters, bricklayers, plumbers, electricians all make more money than college graduates outside of STEM, Law, and Medicine. I have a cousin-in-law who runs a farm (leasing the land), never went to college, and makes six figures. But then his family has been farming since they got off the boat from England (and a thousand years there before the boat ride) and they actually know how to do it.

I would really like to see some education reforms, eliminating a lot of the busywork courses from Freshman year, the stuff high schools were supposed to teach you. I'd also like to see colleges prohibited from raising tuition faster than SpaceX on the way to orbit. And I want to prohibit using student loans for any degree in philosphy, art history, or any "studies", and limit "high school teacher degrees" to state universities, and get political indoctrination out of education. But those are beyond the scope here.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, October 13, 2022 - 01:35 am: Edit

Agreed. Many of my tenant college undergrads would take their student loans and buy expensive food, take trips every year for spring break...most walked out with 80-90K of debt. But then they cashed the checks and spent the money...yeah school is expensive but toss in zero accountability-instant gratification generation, HS education systems that don't teach about household economics (balanced accounts to investment planning basics) and predatory lending/Credit card companies and you have the recipe for disaster we currently have.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 13, 2022 - 09:50 am: Edit

I spent a lot of my Pell Grant on random things but I was lucky in that my dad worked at the college so my tuition was covered. Lots of gaming companies and topless dancers were happy I had government money to spend.

If my tuition hadn't been paid I wouldn't have gone to college. Student loans are just way too devastating to long term life.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 13, 2022 - 10:15 am: Edit

Fear not, I was a much different person back then.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, October 13, 2022 - 10:38 am: Edit

Weren't we all?

--Mike

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 13, 2022 - 10:53 am: Edit

Hopefully!

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, October 13, 2022 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Actually the BEST way to pay for college is join the NG or serve in the regular military and get the "GI Bill" (whatever it's called now).

My older son is thinking about a career in the Merchant Marine or as a pilot. And he was AMAZED that you could get sea time in the US Coast Guard (and thus earn those "Mate" certifications) OR fly fixed wing planes. Probably the best deal is the US Army Warrant pilot program. No degree needed. Finish near the top of your class and you get to choose your platform; the US Army has a lot more fixed wing multi engine planes than you'd guess. https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/career-match/aviation/managing-piloting-aircraft/155a-fixed-wing-aviator-warrant-officer.html

I worked with tons of them in Afghanistan flying various platofrms incluning RC12 (various variants) and Saturn Arch.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, October 24, 2022 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Civil Air Patrol (Auxiliary to the AF) is a way for (students 12 to 20) Cadets to ear their wings. Seniors Members (adults over 21) who also fly can join but will not get the flight time.

Cal Maritime Academy is a great option for school if Merchant Marine is an goal. Any B student with a reasonable SAT score will be considered. The application essay and personal interview probably carry more weight. Dress decent, show up on time, sit up straight, firm handshake and good eye contact are important.