On the upside, Erie still has the snow-brig Niagara.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, January 12, 2025 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Bolo, why does your post have me hearing a crooner singing, "The U-Boat, soon will be making another run..."

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 12, 2025 - 10:28 pm: Edit

I toured the snow-brig Niagara. Years ago when she attended the Tall ships port visit to Milwaukee, WI. There were a dozen other sail ships there, but Niagara was special. Excellent condition, crew very friendly and helpful.

I don’t remember when she was built, but as I recall, she was funded by the state of Pennsylvania.

Wonderful exhibit.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, January 12, 2025 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Greece actually has a working modern-construction trireme (Olympias) docked and it goes out for show tours now and then (last in 2018) with volunteer oarsmen. It is currently in a drydock, but has done publicity stunt things like a visit to England in 1993 and carrying the Olympic flame in 2004. It is actually a commissioned warship of the Greek Navy. It was built in 1985-87 and is kept in good shape and could return to sea for a publicity stunt any time someone comes up with a good enough idea.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 09:44 am: Edit

Greece also has a preserved Fletcher-class destroyer (formerly USS Charrette, then RHN Velos); she's still in commission, albeit only ceremonially.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, January 15, 2025 - 05:05 pm: Edit

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in "Real World Military," but I've been watching a collection of documentary episodes collected around the theme of World War I, and one message talked about a great deal was the maturation of certain military technologies, notably the airplane and the submarine, during the conflict.

At the start of World War I, most strategists thought the only role for the airplane was in reconnaissance. Obviously, it grew into a LOT more.

Similar things were said about the submarine. Some scouting and perhaps a little harbor defense. In 1914, if someone said that the little boats would potentially establish a blockade of the British Isles, a sub crewmember, or even an officer would laugh out loud at the idea.

Most of y'all are at least amateur historians; some of you potentially have degrees in history. Much has been said about how drones are changing the face of warfare in this conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Is this a repeat of what happened in World War I, except with new technologies? If so, what might this say about what we can expect from drones in the war that'll erupt in twenty five to thirty years over unresolved grudges from THIS war...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 02:53 am: Edit

Whether you currently like or dislike 'the Russians', not invitinging them to the Auschwitz Memorial Day event....seems to say those in charge have already forgotten the purpose of it?

A poltical statement that everyone was welcome and behind closed doors comments 'numbers are higher than expected, we suggest just Russian survivors, liberators and the Russian Ambassador come along - but we are terribly sorry, Putin and his Security Details are perhaps too large in numbers' would have slammed the door appropriartely in Putins face?

I am sure Russian Jews are delighted to be rememberd by the West in such high regard - not.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 07:58 am: Edit

Paul;

I think the problem with inviting the Russians is that Soviet hands were far from clean when it came to mass murder and genocide. Indeed, some historians believe Stalin's "body count" was actually higher than Hitler's (partly because he was on the world stage for a much longer period of time). Of course, a lot of that was internal to the Soviet Union during his several purges. But the victims also included non-Russian populations which could make Russian participation in an Auschwitz Memorial Day... uncomfortable.

Auschwitz is in Poland. And one of the notorious mass murders, still well remembered in Poland if less well remembered in the U.K. (or U.S.), was the Katyn Forest Massacre. After Nazi Germany and the USSR jointly conquered and divided Poland, the Soviets secretly rounded up and murdered about 22,000 Poles; mostly military or police officers or "intelligentsia". The intent was to eliminate anyone who might provide leadership for any anti-Soviet movement in Soviet-occupied Poland. the numbers may seem small compared to Hitler's "Final Solution". But as I said, the Poles remember.

The Holodomor (man-made famine that killed millions - mostly in Ukraine) would also be a cause of considerable discomfort given the current war in that country. I believe that historians differ on the question of whether the Holodomor was deliberately caused in order to break the back of Ukrainian resistance to Soviet policies, or whether it was primarily the result of incompetence in Soviet agricultural collectivization. But there is no (or at least very little) question it was "man-made" rather than the result of drought or some other factor, and that millions of Ukrainians died as a result.

None of the above should be construed as trying to let the Nazis of the hook. But I do think it's the primary reason why Russian participation would make a lot of Eastern Europeans uncomfortable, especially given Putin's tendencies to apologize for and even praise the old Soviet Union.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 09:50 am: Edit

Alan

Some good points - but I think it's fair to say, every previous Memorial Day was 'supportive' - so why change it (and not impossible, but perhaps getting close to the point of being likely, is this the last Memorial Day, with those actually there 80 years ago - i.e. when does 'living memory' end for WW2)?

As for the other deaths, there is enough mass or minor killings which shows, things happen in war : -

'British Doctrine' in India in WW2 caused perhaps 3 million dead in the Bengal Famine.

The various religious killings from say 900 AD to 1800 AD (which included alot of killings of Jews).

The various small scale killings in France of captured POW's (by the Allies) - or indeed the various killings of collaberators in France of the lowlands, to remove 'threats to the new governemnt'?

Yes, the last of these are small - but if it's OK for the West to say 'you can't come, because of X', surely we begin the gradual slide of re-writting history for our benefit?

What Western History is now deemed acceptable to be ignored?

But I think the main paint (noting the ages of those present) - for those Russians who was present (either as liberators or prisoners), current politics is a big kick in the teath for them? What goodbye do they get to have?

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 10:39 am: Edit

To be as entirely frank as possible, Paul, the "kick in the teeth" has been delivered by Putin, who has turned his nation into a pariah state.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 11:12 am: Edit

To piggyback on Jessica's comment, does any prominent British politician publicly argue in favor of Britain's actions in India? Does any prominent European argue in favor of religious wars? Or, to take an example you didn't mention but which includes a death toll of genocidal levels, does any Belgian argue in favor of Leopold II's actions in the "Congo Free State"?

But Putin has defended the Soviet Union on multiple occasions and described its ultimate collapse as a tragedy and disaster.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 11:32 am: Edit

I believe the reasoning behind the Russian exclusion is to express disapproval for the Ukrainian invasion. Nothing I have read indicated this is a general rethinking of Soviet WW2 atrocities. A Soviet/Russian delegation had spoken at Auschwitz on this day every year for the past 78 years.

The Red Army did liberate Auschwitz after all.

So I guess I'd personally frame it as: Thanks to you Soviets/Russians for all your hard work and sacrifice to help win WW2 as part of the Allies. And, you've got a bunch of crap in your closet that you really need to clean up.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Alan

Trying to avoid 'politics' - but some in partliament do want the UK Government to apologise for Slavery in general (some of those seem to think it was a British invention it would seem), but I would say the general comment is : -

"We did what we had to do" - and that seems to be accepted and the Media moves on?

I full agree Putin is an idiot (being polite) - but to penalise those who went through it - just seems wrong.

I thought the 'World' banned Collective Punishment?

You can Google it yourself - but it seems Double Standards are being applied.

(When Canada's parliament praised a Ukrainian war veteran who fought with Nazi Germany, a renewed spotlight was put on a controversial part of Ukraine's history and its memorialisation in Canada........)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Collective punishment? Refusing to allow Russian representatives to attend a ceremony may be good policy or bad policy. It does not by any conceivable stretch qualify as "collective punishment".

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 01:03 pm: Edit

I think I need to expand on my previous post. "Collective punishment" has a specific legal definition, drawing from the Hague Conventions and the Fourth Geneva Convention. Preventing someone from participating in a ceremony, or even entering a country of which they are not a citizen, does not qualify.

In his 1946 essay Politics and the English Language, George Orwell (whose anti-fascist credentials are not in doubt - he having taken a sniper bullet in the neck while fighting in the Spanish Civil War)^* wrote

---

Quote:

The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’.

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Homage to Catalonia, not Homage to "Catalonis"

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Alan

Fair enough - but what words would you use to describe Russian liberators and prisoners not being able to go?

Thanks

To add to this post, I am not intending to be arguementative or in disagreement that what Russia has done 'can be deemed acceptable', but as mentioned, this might have been the last opportunity for them to participate - the youngest liberator in 5 years time will be perhaps 102(??) and the youngest liberated 98 (a Strong Teenager 'might' have been told to join the work line... rather than 'other' line).

So, some may still be alive in 5 years time, but any larger scale memorial is very unlikely?

The few that did go today from the Rest of the World, no doubt used the time to share memories (both good and bad) and say goodbye.

Modern day politics stopped that happening for Russians - through no fault of their own have an idiot in charge (and probably fair to say - WW2 did show when a more major threat occurs - how nations could overcome their political differences, to act as an alliance) -so who is the real winner from it all?

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Russia, and Auschwitz-Birkenau;

I think the key point being missed, is that Putin has repeatedly stated that anything that has ever been under Russian control (Imperial, or Communist) should come back under Russian control.

Poland sees this as a direct threat to their sovereignty.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 03:52 pm: Edit

ADM - but that is pretty much what Israel says on 'Greater Israel', Spain and NOT allowing the Catalonians independence and probably half a dozen other fallen or rising empires.

Why is Russia now being 'called out' and why should the few suffer?

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Because Putin's war on Ukraine shows a willingness to bring greater Russia back into existence.
Israels wars are started by neighbors, note October 7th, and Spain's civil war showed that Spain wanted to remain whole.

When is the UK going to let the separatists in Wales have their referendum?

As to the brave solders who helped end NAZI Germany, and showed Auschwitz-Birkenau to the world, the unfortunate reality is their governments actions have consequences.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Can't disagree about Putin wanting to re-create Greater Russia - but The West Bank and Syria didn't attack Isreal and I am not sure a Civil War shows a nation wanad to remain as one?

(The victor will clearly state that but the loser may have differet views).

On Wales - Not sure thet want independence (NI doesn't and Scotland said 'no') - so the UK isn't too bad in offering people their choice.

Consequences? - That goes back to why should the innocent suffer - it's not as if they can do much to stop it.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Paul Howard:

You need to verify your Propaganda.

Terrorists did in fact attack Israel from both The West Bank and Syria. The fact that they were affiliated with Iran and Hamas in no way absolves the West Bank and Syria of guilt.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Syria (elements inside Syria) did attack Israel several times. Terrorists based in the West Bank did attack Israelis many times. Paul Howard is just wrong.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 28, 2025 - 02:42 am: Edit

Syria - that may well have been true of the 'old' Syrian government - but hopefully you will agree that is an unknown for the 'new' Syrian Government (and I fully agree, that is a whole new can of worms - we just don't know).

The relevant point is -does one nation have the right to invade another nation which undergoes a Civil War, which previously it had a war with?

i.e. should the new government/nation be blamed for the faults of the old government/nation and is that a valid reason to invade them?

Most recent major example is Iraq and Iran - could Iran have invaded Iraq after Iraq in effect had a Civil War (with ISIL/ISIS)?

West Bank - I think we can agree to disagree and leave it there?

Alan did raise one question though - and after thinking about it, I didn't answer it very well.

"To piggyback on Jessica's comment, does any prominent British politician publicly argue in favor of Britain's actions in India? Does any prominent European argue in favor of religious wars? Or, to take an example you didn't mention but which includes a death toll of genocidal levels, does any Belgian argue in favor of Leopold II's actions in the "Congo Free State"?" and I replied

"Trying to avoid 'politics' - but some in partliament do want the UK Government to apologise for Slavery in general (some of those seem to think it was a British invention it would seem), but I would say the general comment is : -

"We did what we had to do" - and that seems to be accepted and the Media moves on?"

Factually that is indeed correct, the media paints the pictures we see.

But thats NOT 'what' I learned at School in History.

Perhaps unsurpringly, we learnt nothing about Leopald II and other major Colonial events - mainly it was European and Western Global History.

Perhaps surpingsly though - I don't think we covered WW2 in any detail - mainly because it was Modern History and generically, it was probably considered 'too modern'?

(I went to school in the 1980's in effect and so history was deemed pre-1930 in effect).

About the only comparison in the UK - is when does an item go from 'old' to being an antique - and it used to be 50 years. 50 years covers alot of events, but if you was teaching history, probably a reasonable yard stick?

So going back to Alan's valid question - due to not learning non-Western History, alot of people in the UK will see global events differently to others - and their views will be very much based on their peer group (which includes Politicans).

So with You Tube/TikTok/etc and 'influencers' my own views will be very different to a 20 something person in the UK - and most MP's are of similar age to me BUT, if there is a Band wagon they can jump on (to gain voes), they will very quickly pivot to follow the voting crowd?

So your right, MP's will take a much stronger stance than what I (or most people of my age will do) - if it will get them votes, but India and the Belgium Congo valid points you raised, are not (yet?) a concern to MP's (rightly or wrongly).


Alan, hopefully my ramblings now make a better answer?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 28, 2025 - 03:00 am: Edit

So as a follow on question to 'everyone' - what do your Schools** Teach History up to?

Is the Iran/Iraq war too modern (Falklands war is perhaps too UK/Argentian centric - Grenada is perhaps too US centric etc)?

** -
UK = Secondary School, Up to 16 Years - History up to the end of WW2 is taught (specifically about Germany - mainly the polticial side of things - "Democracy and Dictatership - Germany 1890 to 1945")
UK = Sixth Form/College - Up to 18 Years - (Exam is called 'A Levels') Subject does cover up to 2007 in various area but most are Cold War time period covering. Perhaps fair to say - it doesn't have much about non-British Empire Africa/Asia in (so it probably does cover the Indian 1943 famine).

(Post 18 traditionally is University Education).

I would guess from the subjects covered by A-Levels - the Iran-Iraq will and say 'expansion of the Oil States on the World Stage' probably possibly from now or more likely the 2030's?

No doubt as the UK trys to look more externally on history, than internally, other subjects will be included.