I sent a copy to two guys I trust and when they give the all-clear Jean will put it on the cart.

Then we can talk about Counter-Revolt.

I would need six rebel (civil war) armies. I think we start with:
Romulan
Lyran
Kzinti
are obvious. What else?

Jindarians
Carnivon
Never had a single government so while "rebel" doesn't work "civil war" does.

Maybe just do a "blue" set that could work for anyone?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, August 25, 2026 - 04:05 pm: Edit

The names though...

Respectfully, I'm not convinced.

Does anyone have a counterproposal?

(Ducking now... )

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, August 25, 2026 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Alongside Romulan, Lyran, Kzinti, and Carnivon "civil war" counters, I night also suggest such counters for the Orions and the Seltorians.

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Even leaving intra-Orion rivalries aside, there are instances (such as during the War of Return) in which each warring faction had their own separate Orion Pirate forces under mercenary contract.

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In the case of the Seltorians:

Even by the time of the Revolt, there was still a large number of that species who had the "loyalty gene" present - and who, as a result, fought (and died) on behalf of the Tholians against the "rebel" Seltorians.

Plus, one could use "loyalist" and "rebel" Seltorjan counters as stand-ins for the pre-Seltorian "enforcer species" - each of whom might themselves have lacked a formal "unity of command" at the time of their respective rebellions against the Tholians.

And speaking of "unity of command": who is to say that the post-Revolt Seltorian Suzerainty was itself entirely immune from internal conflict?

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By contrast, while there are plenty of different Jindarian Caravans out there in Alpha, Omega, and the LMC, there aren't all that many instances (outside of the Freehold, at least) where they'd be close enough to one another to exchange blows - at least by the standards of the various factions listed above.

Plus, as noted earlier, they might be less inclined to the scale of combat seen in SFM, relative to species which are more comfortable on "standard" gravity planets.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 25, 2026 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Actually, the book says Jindarian-vs-Jindarian conflicts were not at all uncommon.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, August 26, 2026 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Respectfully, while I see two Caravans having at each other IN SPACE, two rival caravans, BOTH needing critical supplies at the same time, BOTH raiding the same planet for those supplies? That feels like, at best, a singular historical scenario at best.

At that point, in my opinion, perhaps generic (blue on white) counters for one of the caravans would be a better use of limited production than a second set of Jindarian counters in a different color?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, August 26, 2026 - 07:26 pm: Edit

wrong category …

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 26, 2026 - 10:31 pm: Edit

As an alternative option, how about a set of counters for the Imperial Klingon Marches, as previewed for F&E in Captain's Log #44?

Such counters might have a mix of Klingon and Romulan silhouettes on them, to represent the latter species' (subordinate) place within the IKM military.

Plus, even if the Empire proper and the IKM are on the same side, there would still be a need to keep track of ground forces operated by one or the other in joint operations.

Although, it might be best for the various reptilian species under Klingon rule to stay back in the "at-home" Empire, just in case the "Mapsheet P" Paravians are close to IKM space... (In other words, any Klingon Empire counter with a Hillidarian or Vudar on it could perhaps have its IKM equivalent swap in the appropriate Romulan silhouette instead.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 27, 2026 - 11:28 am: Edit

Romulan
Lyran
Kzinti
Generic
Orion (red on blue)
Jindarian (red on gray)

Of course, you can use green counters for blue troops and red for gold and whatever you like.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 31, 2026 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Jindarian on Jindarian combat could occur on an Asteroid where one side was preparing to "dig in" and the other side coveted the rock not yet converted.

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 12:43 pm: Edit

I have a question when I look at the Andromedan Counters in SFM: Counter-Strike there are a couple of them I do not recognize nor see any description of what they are.

Infantry: 'R' Is this Recon? Repair?
Shuttle: 'P' No Clue
Shuttle: 'MW' Medium Weapons?
Shuttle: 'DB' Data Bomber ?
Shuttle: 'RT' Robot Transport ?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 01:34 pm: Edit

I actually don't know. Email me next week when I get back to the office and I'll see if I can scratch my head and come up with an answer.

On the advice of my doctors, along with Leanna and Jean, I took this week off to rest and de-stress. Sort of a vacation but I didn't feel like driving anywhere and wouldn't enjoy it if I went there.

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Hey Steve, no problem. :D I'll email next week, then I can include images of the counters to help jog the memory.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 04:22 pm: Edit

R = recon. two extra movement points, ignores movement penalties but cannot walk on lava (or the surface of water), has no weapons. WARNING, that is an off-the-top-of-my-head guess at a rule. If someone finds a published rule specifically for an andro recon bot, do let me know but the earlier one is probably the right one.

MW = weapons platform, count it as a PF.

Working on the rest. I asked Petrick for his read.

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 07:46 pm: Edit

According to what I found now.

The 'P' counter is actually a Landing Pod for Andromedans and counts as a gunship according to the intro in Counter-Strike.

The 'MW' counter is a weapons platform as you said, so I think this probably counts as a Heavy Weapon Shuttle.

The 'RT' counter, looking at Module M, R10.21 Diamonback I see a reference to a Rapid Transport Network. Maybe like a Heavy Assault Shuttle?

I think the 'DB' is probably some type of Bomber Shuttler.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 09:24 pm: Edit

RT shuttle is not RTN. An RTN is big, bigger than a DN.

DB, dunno, don't think it's a bomber, but I don't know.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 10:14 pm: Edit

As an extra-galactic invasion force, the Andromedans operate quite differently to the various Galactic (and Magellanic) empires they squared off against.

For one thing, the Andromedans do not historically use shuttles, fighters, or bombers.

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Their Mobile Weapons Platform is... somewhat akin to an Interceptor, and is more or less treated as such over in Star Fleet Battles. However, they never historically fielded a fast patrol ship.

There are different varieties of MWP, with different tasks assigned. For example: there is a Ground Assault Platform (or MGP); a Mobile Cargo Platform (or MCP); and so on and so forth.

Although, given how relatively weak these are by Alpha Octant Gunboat standards, there might need to be a slight empire-specific errata adjustment to (L7.15e).

As in, a "combat" MWP, which has only two phaser-2s in SFB, would likely have only two weapons (rather than the standard four) here.

Whereas an MGP or MCP, each of which are completely unarmed over in SFB, might have no weapons (rather than the standard two) in this game system.

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While no-one can say for sure exactly what the Andromedans are as a species, their "Marines" are various kinds of robots. In terms of how they operate in Star Fleet Marines terms, certain Andro robot types are abstracted to their nearest Alpha Octant equivalent, in terms of what such-and-such a "unit" does in battle.

The Andromedans are renowned for their highly advanced use of transporters. This can mean beaming robot Marine squads to or from their targets "normally" - though, unlike facing shields on Galactic or Magellanic ships, the Andromedans do not have to drop their facing power-absorber panels in order to facilitate this.

Or, it can mean a Mothership transporting an entire satellite ship (or MWP variant) stored in its hangar bay, with its full complement of robot Marines aboard, directly onto, or up from, a planetary surface!

Actually, that latter ability is something which might also be worth adding special rules for here, in scenarios where a Mothership is in orbit to support ship-to-surface transporter operations.

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So far as the Rapid Transit Network is concerned:

Before this can be explained, one needs to note how "modern" starships in the Star Fleet Universe have three tiers of warp speeds: tactical, operational, and strategic.

Tactical Warp is how fast a ship can go when in combat, on the scale used over in SFB. Ships with Impulse engines only are limited to Warp 1, or SFB Speed 1. The "speed limit" for, say, a Federation Constitution-class heavy cruiser in combat is Warp 3.14, or SFB Speed 31 - 30 points of warp engine movement, plus one hex of movement from its impulse engines.

Operational warp is how fast a ship can "cruise" under its own power, while relying on its own navigational capacity. As outlined here, a Federation CA can "cruise" at Warp 7, which equates to six hexes of movement per turn over on the Federation and Empire hex map.

Strategic movement, or "dash" warp, requires the operating empire to have set up various navigational beacons, repair and refill stations, and key "strategic movement nodes" (such as starbases). beforehand. So a Fed CA can "dash" at Warp 9.25, but only in places where the Federation has a viable strategic movement network in operation. And, over in F&E, the UFP at large can move no more than 15 ships per turn in this manner.

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So, what does this have to do with the Andromedans?

Tactically, Andro warships can move up to the Warp 3.14 "speed limit", though whethr or not they actually do so is another matter.

Operationally, we don't yet know for certain how fast an Andro ship can "cruise" under its own navigation. But we do know that, while no faster than most ships out in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, is is markedly slower than "cruising" speeds seen in the Alpha Octant. (We might learn more once the long-awaited Andromedan module for F&E is formally published.)

Strategically-speaking, however, Andro warships can "dash" at a blistering Warp 15! However, this can only be done for ships which have displacement devices installed, and requires the use of satellite bases (or of larger Andro bases) as strategic movement nodes.

Thus, one of the key things the invaders did prior to their invasion of the Alpha Octant was to install satellite bases in hidden locations across the Alpha Octant; along three routes linking Alpha to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud; and within the LMC itself. This was the Rapid Transit Network.

What's more, the Andromedans had to actually get to the LMC from the M31 Galaxy in the first instance. For this, they seemingly created an Intergalactic Trunk Line, with its Magellanic terminus comprised of a Desecrator starbase. Speeds along the ITL were, if anything, even faster than across the RTN, enabling the Andros to send reinforcements in relatively short order from their home galaxy.

So while an RTN node can be as "small" as a satellite base, the ITL terminus had to be the size of a starbase - as amply demonstrated when the (third) Desecrator was targeted in the course of Operation Unity.

But what about the first and second Desecrators? Some details on those are outlined here.

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To go back to Andromedan "Marine" counters:

There are relatively few unit types formally listed for the invaders on page 17 of the Battle Manual: Marine, HWS, Commando, Engineer, GAV, and Tank.

However, it is noted in (L7.12c) that the Andromedans do not need, and thus do not have, separate HQ units.

Also, in the article speculating on future unit types on Page 42, it's noted that the Andromedans make extensive use of a small recon robot, which is suggested to be functionally equivalent to the proposed recon vehicle unit to be offered for "native" Alpha Octant empires in the next SFM module.

Perhaps some of these "new" unit types on the countersheet represent other Andromedan equivalents of additional unit types to be added to the game system in the next rulebook?

Or, perhaps some of them refer to different MWP variant types, as noted above?

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Wednesday, September 02, 2026 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Got another one, I must admit I dont know much about Jindarians.

Earlier Steve said "Jindarians black on gray"

When I look at the counters for Jindarians, I see a mix of black on gray and red on gray.

Is this to represent two different Jindarian Caravans?

Interestingly the red on gray have no gunships or fights.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 04:38 am: Edit

yes, two caravans

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 10:22 am: Edit

As I go though the different counters for the empires I am finding more oddities.

Some of the Empires have multiple Marine counters. I think these Empires have sub-races and the counters are to represent that. But there is no game play difference, so a marine is a marine and using the sub-race counters is just for looks?

I think I read someplace Steve had said all vehicles are grav based. Yet trucks on the counters are wheeled based. Also the Hydran seem to have a mix of wheeled and grav. Again no game play difference except for how they traverse terrain. So why take the wheeled versions?

Some counters I think are out of date. The federation Gunship counter is labeled 'B' and looks like a delta, but they do have PF Gunships, so why not using them for the silhouette?

I also remember reading Steve felt that SFM was complete. I think with the Andromedans and some other things, we will need an supplemental rules, or a SFM Version 2 sometime.

I maybe being a bit picky, and I totally blame it on being an ex-40K player. But I do want things to make sense, and some of the thing I am finding need rules, or explanations added.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 11:22 am: Edit

Several Alpha Octant empires do indeed have different member (or subject) species: the Federation, Klingons, WYNs, and ISC.

Technically, the Romulans, Hydrans, Lyrans, Kzintis, and Tholians have subject species also. However, with the partial exception of the Hydrans, these tend to be confined to their respective planets, and are rarely if ever recruited for use in military forces.

Whereas Marine squads of human- or Klingon-sized beings have five individuals in them, the number of persons per squad can vary depending on the physical size of the species in question. But, the in-game effect overall would largely be the same.

Although, should rules for aquatic combat be added someday, certain beings - such as the Rovillians, one of the five ISC member species - might find themselves operating more "comfortably" in such an environment then they do on dry land...

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As noted in Captain's Log #54, anti-gravity sleds as seen on tanks require a certain technology level to be reached before they can be made to exist. For example: the Romulans lacked this capacity prior to the Treaty of Smarba with the Klingons.

Beyond this, there might be a difference between what "front-line" Army or Marine forces have access to, and what is left over for militia or civilian use on such-and-such a colony planet.

In the specific case of the Hydrans: per their sourcebook preview for Prime Directive in Module Prime Alpha, the "terrain" on class-S planets can be quite volatile, as can the surface weather. So it makes sense for the Hydrans to use a certain number of "ground" vehicles in their native environment. (Although the Hydran Destrier tank shown in CL54 is shown as possessing a grav sled.)

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Note that, in the historical timeline, the Federation - outside of the Orion Enclave - did not actually build their own Interceptors or PFs.

There are alternate timelines in which they - or their "reflected" counterpart, the Federal Imperium - did so, however.

Instead, the historical Feds leaned into the "Third Way" of using more powerful fighter types than seen in other Alpha empires.

I suppose it might be interesting to see special rules for some of these distinct Fed fighter types - such as the F-111 or the A-20 - here someday.

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And, as noted on Page 42 of the Battle Manual, there was a time at which SVC had stated the opinion that Star Fleet Marines was, once the first two modules were printed, "complete".

Since then, however, this opinion appears to have been revised somewhat!

Although, it might be best to move some of the "new module" talk to its own thread, rather than continuing it here in the Q&A topic.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Yes, using the sub-race counters is just for looks.

"I think I read someplace" is never a good way to start a rules discussion.

"all vehicles are grav based"
Actually the rules provide for wheels and tracks and grav. Use the one you want. Pictures on counters are just pretty and don't define the specific movement system. You are WAYYYY overthinking things.

" The federation Gunship counter ... looks like a delta, but they do have PF Gunships"
No, they don't not, the Feds have no PFs.

"I also remember reading Steve felt that SFM was complete."
Keep reading and you'll find later thoughts on the issue that are quite different.

"But I do want things to make sense,"
They do if you wore a uniform and carried a rifle.

" and some of the thing I am finding need rules, or explanations added."
Not really true. You're just looking for things that don't need to be there. You remind me of the guy who wanted SFM to have die roll modifiers for the kind of bayonet the specific Marines were using.

You're going to love STAR FLEET MARINES: COUNTER-SUIT which should release next month.

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 03:27 pm: Edit

LOL, unfortunately over thinking comes with years of experience as a software developer.

I'm not trying to change SFM at all, just trying to understand what exists, and some of it is just not clear. If its not clear to me, not sure how to explain to others when I start demoing if they ask. Hence why I ask.

"" The federation Gunship counter ... looks like a delta, but they do have PF Gunships"
No, they don't not, the Feds have no PFs."

Are you sure about that? Captain's Module K Fast Patrol Ships (R2.0) Federation PFs AND PFTs Page 22, shows 4 Thunderbolt PF SSD, Cargo PF, Ground Assault PF, Mine Warfare PF and FI-CON PF.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Not every SSD in Star Fleet Battles represents a unit which exists in the "standard" historical timeline.

Some of these are "impossible" designs: these simply cannot be made to function, engineering-wise. But, they can appear in the Academy simulators, as a means of surprising unwary officer candidates...

Others are "campaign conjectural". These could have existed, based on what is known about the technology of the empire in question. However, for one reason or another, this did not happen in the "standard" timeline.

"Impossible" designs cannot exist n any timeline. However, in some (though not all) cases, it is possible for a "campaign conjectural" unit to exist in one, or more, alternate timeline branch(es).

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In the case of Federation Thunderbolt PFs in the "standard" timeline:

When plans for this unit type were presented to the Federation Council, most of its members balked at the relatively high cost in sapient lives (25-30 crew members per boat) which the use of such attrition units entailed. By comparison, it was deemed more "noble" for two pilots to fly a heavy fighter into battle instead.

Hence, the rejection of Fed PFs (thus, making them "campaign conjectural"); the adoption of the "Third Way"; and the deployment of special heavy fighters like the F-111 and the A-20.

This would have a knock-on effect in the post-war civilian economy, as workboats ("civilianized" cargo PFs, as seen in SFB Module R11) started to enter the market in large numbers.

With no "domestic" workboat design, most of the Federation found itself acquiring Buccaneer-Ws from the Orion Enclave, or importing rival workboat designs from the Kzintis, Gorns, and others.

It's probably best not to ask too many questions as to why the Enclave was able to offer such workboats in the first instance...

By Simon Duggan (Gamegater) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 04:39 pm: Edit

ok, so no Federation PF. So in SFM what is the delta shape that's labeled 'B'? another fighter then? I see nothing in the rules explaining it.

And no I am not over thinking this. I just want to know what that counter represent if there area no Federation PF Gunships.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, September 03, 2026 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Bs are bombers, a planet based fighter adjacent unit that is roughly four times normal size, is of limited range, cannot be ship or space stationed based, only ground or asteroid* based.

*Jindarians can carry them on the outside of their asteroid ships.