| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Friday, February 16, 2018 - 05:26 pm: Edit |
If I understand correctly 1/285 is the same as 6mm, 1/300 is the same as 5mm. I would guess that maybe 1/270 is called 7mm in Europe????
The 270 crowd wants the SFU fighter to look nice next to their X-Wing minis and the 285 crowd wants them to look nice next to their SciFi minis.
The 270 crowd wants to use them in dogfights with X-Wings and Tie Fighters. The 285 crowd wants Shuttles and Fighters to go with their tanks and mechs and infantry to fight ground battles like Star Fleet Marines.
My other concern is that ADB is adding a line of minis in a scale, that might sell but has no rules support to encourage sales. Cart before the horse type deal.
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Friday, February 16, 2018 - 05:36 pm: Edit |
Do Wings of War, X-Wing Miniature Game and Star Trek Attack Wing all use the same Base? How big is it and does it have to be clear, does something go inside of it or underneath it to read? Do they have a stand hole? How does the base attach to the mini?
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, February 16, 2018 - 06:00 pm: Edit |
Shawn: the fighters are ready now, the rules won't happen until someone else writes them. I see no reason to delay, nothing to be lost by going now. We might even see someone write up rules and send them to us.
| By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Friday, February 16, 2018 - 06:14 pm: Edit |
Like Zamboni said. 1/285 is the micro-armor scale of choice these days. GHQ uses it. Steve Jackson Games uses it (more or less) for OGRE. Palladium used it for their (unfinshed) Robotech wargame.
None of those have a fraction of the market penetration that Fantasy Fight has with X-Wing. (X-Wing was sold at retail at Target and other major box stores, something the other wargames can only dream of).
Wings of War and X-Wing use a special square or rectangular base, which has nobbins on the front and rear edges to place the turn-guide rulers and other things, along with some slots for identifiers and power-up type counters. The stand is integral to the game mechanic. It is set up to do "altitude levels" with extra stand-riser inserts, but this was not implemented in X-Wing (I don't play Wings, so I don't know if it was there). The stand peg is "keyed" with a flat-face on the front, like the old TFG stands.
I don't know what stand ST Attack Wing uses. Probably similar, since that game was based on SW Aramada, which was a capital ship extrapolation of X-Wing (in some ways).
The minis for ST Attack Wing are (as noted above) a mixed bag of scales as the licensor required using the sculpts that had been approved for the ST Clix game only a few years before.
| By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Friday, February 16, 2018 - 06:29 pm: Edit |
Wings of War/Glory are 1/144
XWing is a basically a property 1/270. Now people complain constantly about the scale because Lucas did not give a flip about scale in the movies. He used whatever model or painting looked right for the scene.
Attack Wing use a Box Scale. Nothing is scaled to each other as long as it fits in a certain area it's good enough.
| By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Friday, February 16, 2018 - 06:46 pm: Edit |
Yup. There is a cottage market for A-Wing minis on Shapeways to replace the ones Fantasy Flight made almost 3 times too big (due to requirements or just "perceived value" needs).
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 07:11 am: Edit |
I hope Will and Tony can come up with some awesome squadron decals for these big fighters. That would make these a must have.
| By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:16 pm: Edit |
Okay, I just measured a few of my X-Wing minis. In millimeters, the minis are:
X-Wing: 45mm long by 37mm wingspan.
A-Wing: 36mm long by 24mm wide.
Y-Wing: 58mm long (main body is 41.5mm) by 32.5mm wide.
TIE Fighter: side panels are 40mm tall by 32.5mm wide, and the craft is 31mm wide.
Converting for a 1:270 scale, in meters:
X-Wing: 12.15m long by 10m wingspan.
A-Wing: 9.7m long by 6.5m wide.
Y-Wing: 15.66m long (main body is 11.2m) by 8.8m wide.
TIE Fighter: side panels are 10.8m tall by 8.8mm wide, and the craft is 8.4m wide.
Assuming the sizes for SFB fighters / shuttles that I posted up-topic are remotely close to correct, these "large scale" ADB minis will be noticeable smaller than X-Wing minis in the same scale.
The X-Wing is half-again longer than the F-18, and double the wingspan. The X-Wing is probably bigger than the F14 or F15, too.
Garth L. Getgen
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 11:58 am: Edit |
It sounds to me like the X-Wing "1/270" minis are all over the place and the SFU minis at 1/270 wouldn't match closely anyway.
I vote for and would buy 1/285 minis, maybe they would be a mm or more small for X-Wing but they would for sure match my 1/285 minis and I could use them for Star Fleet Marines until there are enough SFU Marines 1/285 minis to use.
I don't need a scale comparison photo any more, thanks.
| By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 03:12 pm: Edit |
Matching SFU minis to X-Wings was always going to be an issue due to the difference in artwork and tech levels. Some of the SFB fighters are smaller than my car. The Russians have air-to-air missiles longer than most SFB fighters. (This is why my first post suggested a size instead of a scale.)
Perhaps the first round of fighters could be whatever they need to be to be seen as "X-Wing compatible", and a second round at whatever scale SFM needs them to be.
Do players typically buy more than one of each mini for X-Wing, or will be stocking up on multiples of the theoretically smaller 1/285 SFM models?
| By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 05:12 pm: Edit |
Shawn, no, the X=Wing minis are not "all over the map". FFG took great care to put them all in-scale based off all available data. As Will mentioned, some claim FFG got the A-Wing wrong. Personally, I disagree. If it's, as Will said, "three times too big", does that mean it should be 3.2 meters long by 2.17 meters wide?? I won't accept that.
The problem is, we're trying to reverse engineer data from ADB and use it for a purpose it was never intended for, and it just doesn't want to fit. SFB required a fighter be approximately the same size or not much larger than a standard shuttle. Truth be told, ADB got it wrong back in the 1980s when they added fighters to the game. Unless you want them to go back and change thirty-five year old rules, we need to make it fit somehow.
Let's assume I was wrong in making the F-18 = 7.5 x 5.25 meters, that I should have made it larger. What size should I have made it and still fit SFB rules and available data??? I suppose it could go up by 60%, to 12 x 8.4 meters and still fit in a shuttle box. But remember, there are MANY fighter larger than the F-18.
Maybe we'll just have to accept that Star Fleet fighters are Warp driven and thus have superior miniaturization technology (no pun intended) over the Imperial Navy / Jedi Rebels X-Wing / TIE Fighters.
As to the difference between 1:270 vs. 1:285 scale ... a 6.5 x 4 x 2.25 meter shuttle is going to be 24.07 x 14.81 x 8.33 millimeters at 1:270 scale, and 22.81 x 14.03 x 7.89 millimeters at 1:285 scale. I submit that until you put these two on a table a couple of inches apart, nobody could tell the difference.
FYI: Real world USAF / US Navy fighters:
F-16 = 15.06 x 9.96 meters
F-15 = 19.43 x 13.05 meters
F/A-18 = 17.1 x 12.3 meters
Others are give-or-take the same size. You can Wiki them if you wish.
Garth L. Getgen
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 05:29 pm: Edit |
I have never played X-Wing but with a quick search I found this photo which shows 8 Tie SF? vs 3 B-Wings and a Y-Wing. So I would guess multiple fighters depending on the scenario played. http://www.rule37.net/2014/12/x-wing-world-championship-2014-debrief.html
SFM would also depend on the scenario played, if there isn't a scenario written that uses tons of shuttles one would get written. For example a single Gorn Command transport has 1 admin, 3 GAS and 1 HTS. Most of the small ground fighter bases hold 6 Fighters, so tons.
So to look right with the X-Wing minis would SFU fighters need to be 1/200 or even bigger?
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 05:50 pm: Edit |
https://maythefourthbewithyoupartyblog.com/2016/01/06/review-of-x-wing-miniatures-game-expansion-packs-more-ships/
Scroll down to photo of the B-Wing, Y-Wing and A-Wing.
The look out of scale also, the B-Wing and A-Wing have a single pilot cockpit and the Y-Wing has a two man pilot/gunner cockpit. The A-Wing should be much smaller (it is a fast fighter) compared to the B-Wing and Y-Wing (slow heavily armed bombers).
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 06:19 pm: Edit |
I'll leave this here also- https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/70920-scale-is-off/
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 06:34 pm: Edit |
Scale comparison as requested.
| By Andrew E Schwenzer (Andrew_Cluetain) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 07:36 pm: Edit |
First off, I still vote for the 1/285 scale, the above pic makes that easier. And I totally agree with the "Maybe we'll just have to accept that Star Fleet fighters are Warp driven and thus have superior miniaturization technology (no pun intended) over the Imperial Navy / Jedi Rebels X-Wing / TIE Fighters." Statement by Garth. The F-18, is a small fighter by Star Wars Scales but Packs as much punch in a dog fight as an X wing (Gat Phaser vs Quad Laser). I also give some handwaving to SFU is a FTL Fight; most other Scifi, the fight is slower than light...
Second, I want to know before I write up rules for SFU Dogfights, do we want a D6 system that is different? OR use the Custom D8s that Fantasy Flight uses for X-Wing?
Pros of D6: No special dice needed, LESS likely to earn a legal battle...
Pros of D8: Rules are practically written, Can have X wing fighter square off vs SFU and have cross universe battles
Either way I'll start with the SFU stats for the "Metal fighters" so that all Alpha Octant empires have something for "Wave 0" and add more as their "Big scale" equals come out.
Finally Should I email this to SVC or some one else at ADB?
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 08:13 pm: Edit |
What scale are the Omni Scale fighters and minis?
It looks like the SW Fighter minis are on 40mm Square Bases, is that correct?
| By Andrew E Schwenzer (Andrew_Cluetain) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 08:20 pm: Edit |
yea there 40mm from front to back; not sure they are "perfectly square"... the little cardboard cut outs that have the arcs on them are not square and sit on top of the base.
That said; if the 1/285 is as small as the "Omni" ones... I'd like to see them bigger (I have Omni F-15's)
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 01:14 pm: Edit |
Jean and I decided at lunch today: 1/285 it is.
| By Andrew E Schwenzer (Andrew_Cluetain) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 03:24 pm: Edit |
*cheers the foward progress for fighter minis*
In thinking about the SFU dogfight game, I'll draft up the D6 version first and if ADB wants me to shift to the special D8, it shouldn't be too hard to fix. I also need to know who to email the proposal to.
Ps sorry for chopping at the bit to do this, it is potentially fulfilling a dream of mine.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 04:13 pm: Edit |
Send it to me.
| By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 07:42 pm: Edit |
I took measurements of the clipart in the Federation Master Starship Book. Almost all of the Type-I drones are 12mm long and the Type-IV drones are 8mm long. Assuming these are three and two meters long in "real life", I measured the fighters themselves and then calculated their "real life" sizes, rounded off to the quarter-meter:
| LENGTH | WIDTH | |
| F-14 | 10.75 | 7.00 |
| F-18 | 7.50 | 5.25 |
| F-4 | 6.00 | 4.25 |
| F-15 | 11.00 | 7.25 |
| F-16 | 7.00 | 3.75 |
| F-20 | 5.00 | 4.00 |
| F-8 | 6.50 | 3.00 |
| F-7 | 6.25 | 4.00 |
| F-111 | 15.00 | 13.25 |
| F-104 | 7.00 | 4.50 |
| By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 07:53 pm: Edit |
Where do shuttles fit on the above table?
Does Cargo Point or Docking Points have some real world equivalents? I mean do we know how much volume a Docking point or cargo box takes up or how much Mass?
| By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 08:13 pm: Edit |
The Franz Joseph shuttle is 25 foot by 15 foot 6 exactly, or 7.64 x 4.7 meters, and stands 8 foot tall, or 2.44 meters.
The ADB shuttle is noticeably smaller. The one in Nick Blank's FFG deck plans 6.5 by 4.0 meters, but some of the other ADB clipart suggests it could be 6.75 x 4.25 meter, NO LARGER THAN 7.00 x 4.50 meters.
The F-14 and F-15 are Size 1+, the F-111 is Size 2+, all the rest are Size 1.
I allocated 20x10x5 meters on the POL deck plans for the two-box cargo bay. My guess is each 50-point box have to be at least 8x8 meters, but not much more than 10x10 meters.
Garth L. Getgen
| By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 08:33 pm: Edit |
Okay, cool. But based on the size comparison chart you posted, those won't be much bigger than the current OMNI-scale minis. You may want to reconsider and go with the 1:200 scale instead.
Quote:By Steve Cole on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 01:14 pm: Jean and I decided at lunch today: 1/285 it is.
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