Steve -- Trab failed to mention that Chuck's proposal also included:

A very nice set of proposed WYN Cluster economic rules on March 23, 2004;

A year-to-year OoB based on the SFB R-section (R12.2) on March 27;

A build schedule if they are attacked posted on March 27.

All of the above are nicely detailed and deserve a look -- they would all make a nice CL preview.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 02:50 am: Edit

I'll see if I can post an update to the rules I posted last year after collecting comments from folks at Origins last July.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 02:47 am: Edit

SVC:

Here is an update of the notional WYN Cluster rule I originally posted on 15 June 2004. It incorporates player comments from this topic and player discussions at Origins 2004.

(WC.0) WYN CLUSTER (Draft Proposed Playtest Rules) (v1.1)
By Chuck & Grant Strong

Description: (Insert colorful WYN Cluster description here.)

(WC.1) General

(WC.11) Limited deployment: Most WYN units are designated with an "L" in the special designator position. These units cannot operate more than two hexes beyond the WYN Cluster or any WYN supply point set up outside the cluster (possibly as part of an alliance) and may be subject to other restrictions.
(WC.12) Radiation Barrier: Units crossing the WYN Radiation Barrier must spend one round of combat recovering from the effects of the barrier. The effects are noted in (WC.34) below.
(WC.13) Fighters and PFs cannot cross the barrier without being transported via a legal carrier, PFT or CPF. Klingon Swarms can never be used in the Cluster hex.

(WC.2) Movement
Movement through the Cluster comes with certain restrictions.

(WC.21) Retreating units into the Cluster hex automatically interns those units if the WYN is still neutral.
(WC.22) Retrograde Movement into the Cluster is permitted for WYN (and WYN allied) units; other non-allied WYN units may retrograde into the Cluster but are interned.
(WC.23) In the event that the Cluster is captured (or allied with another race), units may only use strategic movement into and out of the Cluster if there is a friendly strategic movement node inside the Cluster and any hex immediately outside the Cluster. Should the WYN establish an external SMN then the WYN may move up to five units using free strategic movement.
(WC.24) In the event that the Cluster is captured or is part of an alliance, reserve forces placed in the Cluster hex can only use reserve movement for three hexes beyond the Cluster and cannot contain non-ships as part of the reserve force. In addition, no forces inside the cluster may react to any movement outside the Cluster.

(WC.3) Attacking the Cluster
Attacks into (and out of) the WYN Cluster are rare due to the effects afforded by the WYN Radiation belt. All rounds inside the Cluster but fought outside of the WYN capital systems are considered approach battles.

(WC.31) General Procedure: Due to limits caused by the lack of command, control, communications and logistics and the risks involved, certain restrictions are placed upon the invading player. The attacking player, for the purpose of this rule, is referred to as the invading player and the WYN defender is referred to as the protecting player. Since there is usually no player for the WYN, use these procedures.

(WC.32) Invasion: Units intent on attacking the Cluster may move operationally into the WYN Cluster hex (0804), but doing so ends all movement; all remaining movement points are lost. The phasing player must immediately declare an invasion upon entering the Cluster or if his units are to be interned.

(WC.321) The non-phasing players may respond with friendly units normally using reaction or reserve movement to any enemy operational movement into the Cluster hex.

(WC.322) All units initially entering the WYN Cluster hex (0804) are considered in the hex but on the outside boundary of the Cluster barrier. (When we create the WYN capital system card, we also should include an exterior Cluster area and an interior Cluster area.)

(WC.323) Any time the barrier is crossed and opposing forces are present on the arrival end, a battle round is fought. At the conclusion of this step, both players may choose to retreat. If neither player retreats, additional rounds are fought until one side retreats or are eliminated.

(WC.324) Every battle round, after all players have sent units across the Cluster barrier, if both the phasing and non-phasing players have any forces remaining on the same side of the WYN barrier that have NOT crossed the Cluster barrier then both players must form legal battle forces and conduct a battle round. This round is fought simultaneously with any other rounds fought on the other side of the barrier. The phasing player may choose the order in which each battle rounds are resolved but all rounds on both sides of the barrier must be resolved before another round begins.

(WC.33) Battle Force: The invading player forms a legal battle force from all available units in the hex to breech the Cluster barrier. Both players are not required to send forces into the Cluster if they choose to first fight each other on the outside, but either player may breach the Cluster on any subsequent round.
(WC.331) Forces breaching the barrier may contain admiral, command points, a battle group, etc. It may NOT consist of recovering independent carriers or PF units or casual PFs or recovering scouts using the scout formation position. Recovering drone bombardment units may not be used until they recover, and then only for one round as they cannot be supplied through the barrier; exception (WC.42). No recovering units may be used in any rear echelon support position.
(WC.332) The protecting player after seeing the invading battle force may choose to form a sent up to one legal protection battle force into Cluster under the same restrictions as (WC.331) above. However, the protecting player may never have more than 25 units inside the Cluster at any point (a WYN imposed restriction).

(WC.334) Once inside the Cluster, the protecting player then forms a battle force consisting of the following:
A. A flagship (follow (302.32), but the chosen flagship must be a WYN unit if one meet the eligibility requirements) and supercedes (302.321);
B. At least one recovered (WC.31) and uncrippled protecting force unit for every one WYN unit when possible. Drone bombardment units and units sending independent units forward do not count toward this calculation, but their independent units do; scouts in the formation slot and flagships maybe counted toward this calculation.

(WC.335) WYN Fleet Damage Distribution: The protecting player will resolve damage to the combined WYN protection force in proportion to their defensive factors. For example: if the combined force has 80 defensive points within the battleforce and the WYN units account for 20 points, then apply 25% of the damage to the WYNs. Don't count the crippled sides in this calculation unless the unit was already crippled in a prior round. After determining the WYN fleet damage proportion, apply the damage to WYN units as follows (smallest defensive ComPot to largest):

A. Destroy all fighters;
B. Cripple all size 4 units;
C. Destroy all PFs (except for the last 3 flotillas available);
D. Cripple size 3 units (except flagship or base);
E. Destroy size 4 units;
F. Cripple flagship;
G. Cripple base;
H. Destroy size 3 units (except flagship or base);
J. Cripple size 2 units;
K. Destroy any remaining PFs;
L. Destroy size 2 units (except flagship or base);
M. Destroy flagship.
N. Destroy base.

(WC.336) Approach Battle Success: The invader of the Cluster must achieve a greater level of success than normal. He either must score more damage points than the defender for any TWO rounds of approach or just fight six approach rounds; all other (308.3) rules apply.

(WC.337) Battle Force Restrictions: As long as the WYN protecting player chooses to send forces to intercept invading units breaching the barrier, the invading player's forces inside the Cluster are limited to one legal battle force until the invader achieves some level of approach battle success (WC.355) after which the invader may send up to one additional legal battle force per round into the cluster. These additional forces must fight one round of battle under the barrier effects (WC.34) should the WYN protecting player choose to send a battle force to intercept them. Any other invading forces already inside the cluster have the option to assist other invading forces that have just crossed the barrier or press ahead with a capital assault rounds.

(WC.338) Note: it is quite possible for there to be several simultaneous battle rounds in the WYN Cluster hex. An extreme example could include several WYN systems under attack using the capital assault rules, an intercept battle of recovering reinforcements that have just breached the barrier and a battle outside the Cluster of units awaiting possible entry into the Cluster.

(WC.34) Barrier Effects: The barrier restricts unit's combat capabilities ONLY during the round immediately following a transit of the barrier (inbound or outbound). They include:
(WC.341) Combat Potential: A unit's attack values are reduced 50% (rounded DOWN).
(WC.342) Attrition Units: Fighters & PFs cannot be operated or used to absorb damage. If their host unit is destroyed in this transit round then they too are destroyed with no resulting minus points.
(WC.343) Drone Bombardment: No recovering unit may use DB.
(WC.344) Electronic Warfare: No recovering unit may use scout functions or be placed in the scout formation position. Recovering scouts do not benefit from their self-protection jamming under (308.53) while in recovery.
(WC.345) Escorts: All recovering escorts provide only limited protection to their protected unit (carriers, commando ships, FEGs). A protected unit may be attacked directly. All escorts add one point to the total points needed for each directed damage attack (heavy escorts (per SIT) may add two while escorting a carrier or carrier-like unit). Emergency escorts cannot be added while either the escort or its protected unit is in recovery.
(WC.346) Other recovering units: cannot be used as a mauler or use a mauler-like feature), cannot use its SFG, cannot use web casters, cannot use PPDs, cannot use SWACs, SAFs or cloaked decoys, cannot use a cloaking device; cannot use troop ship "G" factors; cannot operate Prime Teams.
(WC.347) Crippled Units: Ships crippled during their recovery phase must wait one additional combat round before they are allowed to return across the barrier and must be included in any proceeding approach round, if an approach round is still required. If a player chooses to remove these units before they have recovered then he may attempt to scuttle each ship on a die roll of 3-6; on a roll of 1-2 the WYN captures the unit. If a protecting force "G" unit was present in the last combat round a has an available "G" the subtract 1 from the die roll, if a protecting force Prime Team was assigned a capture mission and not used on the previous round, then subtract 1 from the die roll. These effects are cumulative.
(WC.348) Penal Units: No recovering penal unit may use the Special Attack or Honor Duel missions. The sacrifice mission is still functional but at reduced effectiveness of 50% (rounded up) while recovering (a D6J can absorbs 4 directed damage points and is then crippled).

(WC.35) Battle Intensity: If one or both battle forces contains any recovering units, then the opposing player adds the following to the effects to his battle intensity:

Recovering ships in Force	Added BIR
100%	+4
Less than 100%	+3
Less than 66.66% (2/3)	+2
Less than 33.33% (1/3)	+1

(WC.36) Directed Damage: both players may designate one or more recovering opposing units and declare them to be a single target for directed damage attack at a ratio of 1:1; ships in formation can be directed upon at 2:1. Maulers get no additional benefit in attacking recovering units at 1:1 but could be used in resolving a directed attack on a ship in the formation bonus within the limits of (308.45). Only recovering units may be targeted in this way and all recovering units can be targeted even if they were not included in the current battle force. This would count as a player's one permitted directed attack.

(WC.37) WYN Battle Auxiliary Groups (WYN BAGs)
WYN Auxiliary Units use a special form of Battle Group (315.0).

(WC.371) In addition to using Battle groups, the WYNs can use any three Auxiliary Units (size class 3 or 4) to form a Battle Auxiliary Groups and have that group count as two units for command purposes.
(WC.372) Any number of Battle Auxiliary Groups may be formed up to the command limits of the flagship.
(WC.373) All other battle group rules apply the use of WYN Battle Auxiliary Groups.

(WC.38) Retreat from the Cluster

(WC.381) Invading forces may choose to retreat from the Cluster after an battle round but ships crippled during their recovery phase are subject to (WC.347); any protecting units inside the Cluster may not pursue. However, if these retreating units emerge from the barrier and encounter any forces awaiting them outside the cluster, they must fight one round under the recovery rules before they are allowed retreat from the Cluster hex. After which, they maybe pursued normally.

(WC.382) Protecting forces may also retreat from the Cluster using (WC.381) above to include the scuttling or capture of recovering crippled protecting units. However, WYN forces are not required to retreat if the protecting chooses to do so.

(WC.383) If the invading player retreats for the WYN hex, then the protecting force must do so also after the invading player completes his retreat actions; failure to retreat results in the capture of the protecting units within the Cluster by the WYN.

(WC.4) Supply

(WC.41) Units on the opposite side of the Cluster cannot receive replacement fighters, PFs or "G" factors from units on the other side of the barrier or from those units in recovery. They may exchange these resources with other recovered units on the same side of the barrier.
(WC.42) Recovered drone bombardment units may only be used for one round as they cannot be supplied through the barrier, unless supported by a recovered Drone Supply Tug (assigned mission U) on the DB ship's side of the barrier.
(WC.43) WYN and any defending drone bombardment ships receive free drone bombardment points while defending the Cluster from the inside.
(WC.44) WYN supply can only be traced two hexes beyond the Cluster unless the WYN establish a supply point within two hexes of the Cluster; normal supply rules would then apply for external supply points.

(WC.5) Special Rules

(WC.51) Non-ship units: these units are too slow to cross the barrier without using robot controls and cannot recover in time to be used in combat during the round that they cross the barrier. During the recovery round, directed damage needed to cripple the slow unit will destroy it (even if not already crippled as it is already in an unprotected state). The only reason to cross the barrier with a non-ship unit is to have these units available for use in later rounds. Any non-ship that crossed a barrier cannot retreat and are automatically captured should other friendly forces retreat. A successful "G" attack (521.3) on a recovering (and unmanned) slow unit results in its capture for the WYNs.

(WC.52) Salvage: The invading player cannot collect salvage unless he conquers the WYN during the turn of attack. If the WYN successfully defends the Cluster, then the WYN player receives the salvage from both sides at the end of the player phase.

(WC.6) Scenario Rules

(WC.61) The WYN at War: If any attempt to the invade the Cluster results in any WYN world being involuntarily devastated, the WYNs with join the other non-offending side for the next following six turns. This six-turn clock is reset if and enemy attacks a WYN unit or enters the Cluster and chooses not to be interned. At the close of the sixth turn the WYN will then declare their neutrality and all units must leave the Cluster that turn or be interned.

(WC.62) Treachery: To prevent any treachery on the part of a protecting player, all protecting units that enter the Cluster are fitted by the WYN with a weapon systems lockout feature during the unit's barrier recovery round. This feature can be activated by the WYN at any time and prevents the unit from using any of its weapons to target other WYN units. Movement and maneuver systems still function normally (this prevent treachery on the part of the WYN player in that the protecting player can escape the Cluster by disengaging). This weapon system lockout feature is disabled by a successful transit of the Cluster barrier (exposure to cluster radiation destroys the feature).

NOTE: This rule was added to prevent one player from sending a legitimate invasion force into the Cluster and then having an overwhelming "protection" force react or reserve into the Cluster only to be find itself inside the cluster (with a large force of recovered ships) after repulsing the original invader.

(WC.7) OOB
See 27 March 2004 post in this topic.

(WC.71) WYN Build schedule
See 27 March 2004 post in this topic.

(WC.8) WYN SIT
See 3 April 2004 post in this topic.

By Trab Kadar (Trab) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Chuck, Nice edit on the above rules. I hope Steve might include them in the CL31 preview along with the other material (I am reluctant to use any playtest rules without sanction as I feel that I might be wasting our time playing with material the does not have Steve's blessing -- I hope you understand). That said I especially liked your WYN weapons transponder lockout device as it explains why the WYNs could allow a potential future enemy into the cluster and not worry about them stabbing them in their back after they drive off the initial invaders.

I do have a few suggestions for your WYN Econ rules (4WE.0): should the WYN economy go to a limited war state in the Coalition captures the Kzinti capital? Would they not feel like their sovereignty is threatened and want to start fortifying the cluster? With the Kzinti driven off map, who would be in a position to help them and come to their rescue? Should the WYN permit the Kzinti to use the cluster as safe harbor if the Kzinti capital falls and subsidize repairs for the Kzintis that retrograde there?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 04:56 pm: Edit

"(WC.331) Forces breaching the barrier may contain admiral, command points, a battle group, etc. It may NOT consist of recovering independent carriers.." Should have "Fighters" included. S.Tenhoff 4-11-05.

(WC.331) It also includes Free Scouts can't be used until "recovered", I believe the Klingon+Lyran forces in WoF include Free Scouts in their fleets (to fall within CR limits). How does that interact with the established SFB scenario? S.Tenhoff 4-11-05

"(WC.336) ... for any TWO rounds of approach " The SFB scenario made it seem (at least the background/history) that if the Lyrans succeed in the SFB scenario that would of been it for ready defenses. IE the WYN threw everything they had against the Lyrans and if they failed the Lyrans would of been "in". S.Tenhoff 4-11-05

Stupid Question time, if I attack the WYN with the Coalition, the Kzintis "save" them, can I intercept the Kzintis as they move out of the Cluster, and they suffer the effects of 'recovery' in adjacent hexes? S.Tenhoff 4-11-05

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 05:46 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

(WC.383) If the invading player retreats for the WYN hex, then the protecting force must do so also after the invading player completes his retreat actions...

---

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 06:24 pm: Edit

No I meant like the next turn.

CT-x, the Coalition attack and are repulsed. The Kzinti's reserved in with CC+3CVS+3CM+3DW.

I strat move ships into position to pin the kzintis as they move out during the end of turn CT-x.

AT-X, the Kzintis attempt to move out of the Cluster, do I get to attack them when they are recovering?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Scott:

Your example cannot happen as the Kzinti must also retreat after the Coalition retreats so there will not be any Kzinti forces in the Cluster hex during the Alliance turn.

Another point I would also make: everyone can 'see' anyone moving INTO the Cluster hex but no one knows when something will pop out of the cluster barrier and as such any ship emerging from the Cluster will have time to fully recover and move into an adjacent hex before anyone can react in a timely manner. The only execption to this is when there are already external barrier forces present in the hex as either part of an invasion or procection force. For example: an invader wishes to evacuate his cripples from the inside of the Cluster to make room under his command rating for other ships to be included in an interior battleforce, so he send the cripples through the barrier who are met by the protecting players ships on the exterior of the Cluster.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 07:16 pm: Edit

OK, didn't understand that.

So then if the Coalition puts lets say a pin stack of 5 ships at each hex before the Kzintis attack, pick the WYN hex as resolved first, the Coalition retreats, the Kzinti retreat to either of the pin stacks 2nd.

So the Kzintis have the 5 ships that got pinned reserving to WYN, then they have the ships that got into the Cluster added. They now fight as normal, with the ships from the WYN required to fight, and the other 5 Kzi's added if spots are available, against the 5 Coalition pin ships.

Right?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:27 am: Edit

I would say lets leave the units outside the cluster alone with this rule. It is designed to help the WYN survive, not create a little rule whereby you can stop your neighbor for doing a good deed.

By Clell Flint (Clell) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:13 pm: Edit

I've been reading through this topic for a while and it seems like the proposed mechanics for effects of the Wyn Radiation Zone on an attacker are more complicated than adding the Wyn is worth.

I suggest that anyone attacking into the Wyn hex be treated for combat purposes as if they conducted a Fighting Retreat for the first round of combat and that the Wynn be allowed to use DD on as many targets as they want with targets not in the battle force requiring 4:1. Also any groups that have escorts are disrupted. No ship (such as carriers) can be assigned escorts until the 2nd round of combat. After that combat proceeds normally.

This will make it difficult to attack the Wyn and costly, but possible if you bring enough force to bear.

<edited to add effects for Carrier and Escorts>

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:49 pm: Edit

OK, I was looking over Chuck's propsed OOB for the WYN, and it seems like a big waste of counters to print WYN-ships that are forced to stay within the Cluster. Couldn't we just use a Swarm-Like counter and say it has 80 COMPOT and 24 Fighters, and for every 3 damage directed upon it, it destroys 1 COMPOT permamently from the counter, and keep track of it with pen-paper as the Swarm?

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Clell,

The problem is only so many ships at a time can cross the barrier - then the next group to enter (round 2) will also be under the effects. 1 single round of fighting retreat won't really represent the massive effects of invading the cluster (at least IMHO).

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 01:48 pm: Edit

I think we should just outright disavow more than 1 Battleforce (for either the Alliance or Coalition) from attacking the WYN on any one turn.

It'll be the Tholian-Stomp all over again, where you can amase a huge navy to stomp them in one turn while their Navy can't fallback as they are supposed to do (SAF's within 3 of their SBs) and the WYN+Other Side can't do anything to stop it.

Just make the reasoning "political" as they could never get any Admiral to signup more than 12-14 ships to do it, and be nice about it.

I see it like this "Oh, well I want 30 ships, a C8, D7C, 3DVS, 3D5V, 9D5, 9F5, D6S, D6M, 2D5S to attack the WYN, I don't know exactly how much we can rape their planets for or how long the resources will last, but *&$^it the WYN will stop being a thorn in our side!" The Admiralty is going to laugh them off the SB.

By Trab Kadar (Trab) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Clell -- I have been waiting years to play F&E both with and against the WYN in F&E. Chuck's cluster rules are what I imagined post-barrier combat in F&E would look like. It reminds me of the trapped ship web effect. Ships go in; get hammered under the effects, those that survive recover to assist the next wave. Survive six rounds of this then go attack the cluster planets while other waves come through the barrier -- COOL!

Scott -- Think outside the box (cluster) as many WYN ships can be used in the War of Return. Besides, I want the counters to create alternate scenarios or alliances. F&E is about the moving and fighting with interesting ships (counters) and capabilities and not a keeping some ledger book (boring).

I want to have battles like those found in "The WYN and the Lion" where there was a Kzinti SCS group fighting along side with the WYN and assisted by their Orion partners. I want the rag-tag scows and the "Nancy" to put up a desperate, fate-is-in-their-hands battle with tuff decisions to make by the WYN; "Do we hold the line here against ships suffering from the barrier or do we fall back and regroup under the guns of the planets and bases." Chuck's suggestions capture it all down to the right level of detail.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Trab, I understand that, but from a KISS principle, it seems so much effort to account for what was basically 3 battles to invade the WYN (well, the Andro Invasion wasn't really a battle).

The Lyrans, the Klingons, and the ISC. I don't recall an Kzinti attempt to take it over, well Y180-era wise, maybe Y150-165 or so)

I think the pieces used for WYN-Aux's would be better used for WYN-fish ships for the actual War of Return scenario, that's all.

By Trab Kadar (Trab) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 02:40 pm: Edit

I don't mind if anyone tries to invade with a massive fleet but it needs to be VERY costly to capture the cluster; costly enough in ship losses and repairs that anyone attempting to do so must think long and hard as to the consequences of a tactical success and strategic failure.

By Clell Flint (Clell) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Trab- I think fighting at BIR 0 while your opponent gets to fight at 10 and direct on anthing they want for a round is pretty costly.

As for having multi-round effects that isn't very realistic on an F&E scale, that is tactical.
How long do the effects last in SFB only a few turns if I recall. The Wyn get one chance to hit you when you come out of the Radiation Zone after that they lose their advantage.

You make this too complicated and you are going to lose more sales than you gain IMHP.

By Trab Kadar (Trab) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Where do you see multi-round effects in any of the proposed rules -- I only see one round; the round of entry from the barrier.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Trab,
That's true, except that it takes multiple rounds to resolve the whole fleet getting through the barrier. (I'll note that I utterly disagree with the concept that only ~15 ships can cross the barrier at any one time; a 25 parsec radius gives a huge area for fleets to enter. Fifteen ships is insultingly low.)
The way I'd do the system would be as follows:
* The attacker forms the minimum number of battle forces possible, using all of his units; he may optionally use free scouts and drone ships, it's not required to do so to reduce the number of battle forces (carriers forwarding fighters may not be included).
* Each attacking battle force creates a "WYN incursion location" (WIL)
* the defender may allocate his forces to any number of WILs.
* The first round of combat at each WIL is under the Radiation Zone effects, whatever they may be. I'm okay with Raider's ideas.
* Attacking ships at a WIL must either stay at that WIL or retreat from the cluster, until and unless they win through as per Raider's (WC.336). They may then be assigned to another WIL (where they'd remain until the forces at that WIL won through), or proceed on to the capital assault.
* Defending ships may be relocated between WILs between rounds as the defender wishes. A round where the Defender doesn't allocate forces to a WIL counts as one victory towards (WC.336).
Yes, this probably results in the WYN getting stomped, if they get attacked at all. This is as it should be; before the GW, none of the three powers would allow another to gain control of the WYN; during the GW, none of the powers had the forces to spare to attack the WYN. Thus the poor efforts displayed in the history. However, if the attack was to be done with malice of forethought (rather than desperation for resources), then it would be done right, with overwhelming forces.
(EDIT: I'd have the defender always allocate ships after seeing the attacker's battle force. Perhaps not realistic in the later rounds, but it's easy-ish. If the attacker sends ships to the WYN planets, then the defender gets to allocate ships to the "planet area" after knowing what was sent, regular capital assault proceedure would then follow.)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Remember that the Cluster can quickly focus its forces to defend against any attack, the ability to just put one Battle Force (I think that should be the marker, 1 BF at a time passes the barrier, no ship count) through at a time represents the scattering effect of passing through the barrier and running into the WYN defense force.

I like Chuck's proposal for the BIR change varying on how many effected ships are fighting.

The WYN are supposed to be a huge resource area. Whoever takes it will have buku income from that one hex. Build a SB in there and defend it with a decent force and it will be a bankroll that will be almost impossible to lose.

It must be hard to take the hex. I just dont like the idea of the effects lasting outside the cluster, too many abuses to list a playable rule for all the possibilities.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 04:50 pm: Edit

OK, I have a spreadsheet with the shipnames from given scenarios.

So SH16 (which is the Lyran invasion of the Cluster). The forces are:

WYN:
LDD, 2ZFF, 2KG2, 3OCR, 4OLR, 4SAC, SAV, SAP+6PF, FF (Fish), plus extra PF+Fighters (lets say 10+PFs, 2CPFs), IIRC
CR10=LDD(flag), 11PF(2 slots), 2ZFF, 2KG2, 3OCR, 6ftr

Lyrans:
DN, BC, 2CW, CWL, CWS, WMS (ignored), WPF+6PF, 2DW, DWL

COMPOT:
Lyrans: 83
WYN: 71

So on the first round of battle, the BIR will look something like this (Lyran=1, duh, WYN=4+4)

Lyrans roll on the 5 chart, lets say 30%, the WYN roll on the 9 chart, and gets 40%

Damage:
Lyrans inflict: 25, 6PF dest, 2KG2 crip, 5 fighters
WYN inflict: 28, 2CW+2DW crippled, -2pts

Next round:
WYN COMPOT: 83 (OLRs replace KG2, PF+Ftr replenished)
Lyran COMPOT: 71

The Lyrans would never have a chance after the 2nd round (in my opinion, presuming the WYN have lots of replacement PF/Ftrs).

Now admittidly, the Lyrans only have a DN+BG+BC+CWS+WPF, so 2 spots remaining to be filled, but I don't know how much that will help them unless it's quality ships, and remember the WYN forces in that scenario are w/o a AxDN, AxBC, etc.

If you wish to continue with Chucks rules I'd suggest the BIR modifier for the WYNs be changed/tweaked after a few solo playtest occur.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Based on my early calculations on double-sided counters needed for Civil War based upon SFU historical published material and F&E related buildable ship variants:

1 - Double sheet (216 counters) for unique or limited number ships/units

3 - Identical Double Sheets (648 counters) for common ships that will be needed in numbers or will be produced in numbers. Many of these ships can be used in the General War such as extra counters, inactive fleets, etc

While it may seem to be a lot, it is not after you consider we are dealing with at least seven different races/factions:

Seltorians
Romulans Civil War (GW Dual Use)
Vudar
WYN Cluster
Kzinti WoR & Civil War (BW Dual Use)
Lyran Civil War (GW Dual Use)
LDR

(For example, the LDR alone have nearly 40 unique, F&E relevant, ship TYPE counters that include (This list does not include possible LDR AuxUnits):
BB, BCH, BCS, BCV, CA, CC, CCH, CCX, CL, CW, CWP, CWS, CWV, DD, DN, DW, DWG, DWV, DWX, FCR, FDD, FF, FP, HDW, LTT, MP, MPE, MPG, MPS, MPV, NCA, NCC, NCV, PE, POL, PSC, PV, SC, SCX)

So, if we use a 1+3 counter sheet mix, we will be able to acheive the right balance of counters based on the practice of fielding any starting OOB including the WYNs from SFB (R12.2).

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Clell, one of the big advantages the WYN have is that almost no specialty ships work while under zone effects (no scouts, no mauler, no SFG, no fighter at all--IIRC). This needs to be shown.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 07:32 pm: Edit

I thought (no rules in front of me) that Scout Functions+Maulers still work in the WYN Zone, it's just that with the major losses of power generation (like 50% power generated for 1st 5 turns), is why there effectiveness should be reduced.

I'd think that if the Attackers had a scout, and the WYN did not, that the WYN should get a disadvantage. I don't know about the defensive bonuses of the Scout-diamond would give. The WYN still rely upon a lot of drones for offensive potential.