Scott:

The barrier effects mess with just about everything in SFB, especially scout channels.

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:08 pm: Edit

I'm somewhat ambivalent on limiting the number of ships passing through the barrier at once; the disruption effects of the radiation zone are bad enough without trickling the ships through, unless that's also an effect of the zone. If we realy want to simulate a scattering effect, why not have the attacker form all ships into BFs and then have the attacker roll to see how many BFs make it through? Any BFs that failed could try the next round, and so on. It's another decision step, yeah, but only a variant on sending one BF through at a time, really. If I amass 100 ships to invade the cluster, I shouldn't have to send them in in packets of 12-15.

Oh, and could we please change WC.37 to Auxiliary Battle Groups? Yes, I know, it lacks the 'groan' factor, but I think we can do without it, yes?

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Just so's people have an idea why I so dislike the one "BF at a time", I'm going to throw some math at you.
(R12.1) says that the WYN cluster is on the order of 50 parsecs in diameter, and that the radiation shell is relatively thin. I'll assume that "thin" is on the order of a parsec (which means that the "brief exposure [at Warp 7]" mentioned in the text is about four days, which I wouldn't call brief, but moving on...). So the interior "surface area" of the radiation shell is (approximately) 4 * pi * 24 * 24 * 3.26 ~= 23596 square lightyears.
If we limit ourselves to only attacking from one-sixth of the cluster (artificial limit due to the hex grid), then that still leaves an area of slightly under 4000 square lightyears for attackers to show up in. By contrast, an SFB hex is on the order of 0.001 square lightseconds.
So. We know (by published scenarios) that it's possible to send a fleet through the radiation zone and keep a ship-to-ship separation of under a lightsecond (30 SFB hexes). Simple math tells us that we've got a couple of thousand square lightyears to play with when sending ships in, even after limiting ourselves to hex-to-hex movement on the F&E map. And you honestly expect me to believe that the absolute best I can do is send 15 ships through at once?
There has to be a better way. I, naturally, like my idea of creating seperate locations for each BF that enters the zone. Jkd's idea of rolling for arrival has merit, too. Anyone got a different idea?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 01:53 am: Edit

John & Dave:

So what do you want -- a technobabble answer or a game balance one as to why there needs to be some sort of limitation on the number of ships entering inside the Cluster at once? I cannot give you a technobabble one because no matter what I say, someone else will explain it away with counter-technobabble. So what this comes down to is a game balance issue.

Seriously, the WYN have 37 mobile units at the start of the GW (at best 3 battle lines TOTAL; see my (R12.2) research dated Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:52 am). The WYNs have got to have a fighting chance to neutralize a substantial invasion force and with outside help be able to give pause to a major one. Any invasion needs to be extremely risky. In the WoF, you will note that 1/3 of the Lionheart/Riposte forces can be destroyed under (617.B6) regardless ship type (BTW, I could also see these two forces could have been more of a recon-in-force for a possible full-scale invasion on a following turn had the information gathered showed a weakness in the Cluster forces.) In my estimation, the WYN fleet should be able to hold-off a force three times its size and cause losses to that force at a rate of at least one lost plus one crippled invader ship for every one lost WYN ship to have any chance of surviving.

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 09:42 am: Edit

I understand the balance issue, Chuck. I think the problem we're dealing with here is that the published history makes no sense; it's in line with all those Star Trek explanations of how various characters 'have special ability to instantly X' (i.e. Miles O'Brien) but has no real basis in reality. As I understand it, the main reasons the Wyn survived was that 1) the radiation barrier made for costly expeditions even against the scratch force the Wyn could put up, which meant that rela fleets had to be used, and how many of those did anyone have to spare during the GW, and 2) the cluster was so rich (I'm assuming Fed Cap hex or better) that in the event of a serious invasion, the Wyn could almost be guaranteed to play one side off against the other.

Honestly, I see no reason why the Wyn should last more than 10 seconds in the face of a serious attempt to take the cluster unless they get outside help or unless they've been left alone for almost the entire GW, and even then they'd need some sort of assistance.

Let me ask a question to clarify, though, if I may? Under the proposed system, would an invader wishing to invade with 50 ships be able to send only one BF a time through the curtain, with the remainder sitting on the map outside the cluster, or would all 50 ships go through, but with only those in the BF eligible for recovery? (Actually, I suppose it does amount to the same thing, but sending them through one BF at a time is less complicated. Okay, one at a time makes sense now).

I'd really prefer some sort of random number of BFs making it through, though. Perhaps force the invader to form 6 BFs and make a roll similar to the Gorn off-map ships. It would create an effect similar to ships emerging from a storm front and would give an invader less control over the battle. It also assumes that any invasion would go in all at once and not piecemeal, though its arrival all at once would be a crap shoot (if at all).

Having said all this, I can see a valid argument for restricting the number of ships able to pass through a single hexside (I assume the main assumption here is that any invasion is not dribbling in over the full length of a turn?) due to the relatively small size of the cluster.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 10:27 am: Edit

Raider,
I want rules that make sense -- or, at the least, don't shatter my suspension of disbelief. The WYN survive for a number of reasons: (a) from Y116 until sometime in the mid 150s, none of the major powers knew about them; (b) when the three powers found out about them, they didn't appear to be worth invading; (c) by the time the powers figured out that the WYN were worth invading, all the powers knew, and so stalemate.
I'm pretty sure the answer has to be political. The Kzinti won't stand for either the Klinks or the Lyrans having the cluster (and vice versa) for obvious reasons; neither the Klinks nor the Lyrans will allow the other to control the cluster (the Lyrans would then be very close to matching the Klink economy, the Klinks would economically dominate the Lyrans). In any of the cases, the Orions would be pissed that someone had taken their most secure shipyard.
Lionheart and RIposte failed because there just weren't enough ships in either attack (note that, by (617.B6), the forces combined might have succeeded -- personally, I suspect hyperbole, but whatever). A reasonably determined attack should, therefore, be able to crush the WYN, but the numbers of ships that the current proposal requires is in no way reasonable (I'm guessing that you'd need on the order of 200 ships to have Lionheart succeed; that's at least double what I'd suggest).
So. Ramblings on "political" constraints on being allowed to attack the WYN:
* No race can think about attacking the WYN until they've started into exhaustion (75% economy or less). (Trying to take the cluster would seem to be a desperate resource grab, so a race needs to feel the pinch before it decides it wants to make that grab.) There are two exceptions to this:
(a) If the Kzinti are "badly mauled" (driven off-board?, have their capital captured?, I'm leaving the term deliberately vague), the Lyrans and Klingons may start considering an attack on the cluster. (The Kzinti, while desperate, have no real way to mount such an attack.)
(b) If the Klingons capture Tholian space and found their lost colonies, the Lyrans and the Kzinti may consider attacking the WYN.
* At the start of its turn, a race "considering attacking the WYN" rolls one die for each "reason" it has to consider (partial exhaustion is one reason, full exhaustion is a second), and keeps a running total. For example, if the Kzinti have fallen, the Klingons have taken Tholia, and the Lyrans have hit partial economic exhaustion, then the Lyrans would roll three dice.
* If a reason ceases to be valid (Kzinti come back, Tholians evict Klingons, race stops opperating an exhausted War economy), then the dice for that reason are not rolled. (Obvious, I know, but I'm trying to cover as many bases as I can.)
* When the running total equals or exceeds 40, the race has convinced itself and its "friendly opponents" (the Klingons oppose the Lyrans (and vice versa), the Kzinti have internal factions that oppose each other).
* Attacking the WYN without due "consideration" is bad. (Possibly so bad it's not allowed, but maybe we can come up with rules for Kzinti civil war and/or Lyran vs. Klingon disputes.)
* After Y160, the Orion Pirates have an important shipyard in the WYN cluster. Any race attacking the WYN will be visited by a storm of "punitive pirate activity" (details to be worked out). Each economic phase for the twelve turns after an attack on the WYN (successful or not) roll two dice; if the total is equal to or greater than the number of turns since the attack, then the pirates do their thing. No rolls need be made in Fall 181 (Turn 27) or later (the WYN capture the shipyard themselves).
The whole idea here is to postpone the attack until the races involved no longer can really afford to attack, but really can't afford not to attack (i.e., they need the resources, but also need the ships that would be required to capture the resources).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 10:33 am: Edit

The problem with getting a random number of Battle Forces through at once is that, if they roll a 6, and get like 75 ships over on the first round, then the WYN are dead, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Now, the reason I like 1 new battleforce per round, rather than 15 ships, is that you can mix and match ships going through together a little better I think, and it keeps the numbers sometimes a little lower than 15, sometimes higher than 15 SEs.

It's not like the WYN are going to have THAT many ships until very near the end of the war, so anytime the Lyrans+Klinks want to send about 100 ships towards the cluster, they are going to have a good shot.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:00 am: Edit

Cfant,
One new battleforce/round is 15 ships; it's also ludicrously small given the known accuracy ships have in crossing the zone and the vast area in which they can appear. It's a kludge; worse, it's an obvious kludge; most damning, it's quite possibly a kludge that's wrong, given that, historically, 30-50 Coallition ships would have been a real threat to the cluster in Y182. The thing that many people seem to have missed is that 90% of the WYN's defenses are outside the cluster (namely the Klingons, Kzinti, and Lyrans). The WYN are not gods of defense, they're gods of diplomacy, who happen to have defensible enough resources that it's worth everyone's time to listen to them.

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:42 am: Edit

I have no problem with the WYN facing a full 6 BFs at once (or three or whatever). But, still, there's always details that can be tweaked. It would work just as well saying that the most that could get through is 2 or 3 BFs a round, if the attacker rolls high enough. Stipulate that a minimum of 1 makes it through the first round, and leave open the possibility of 0-3 (or whatever number is decided on) every round after that until some sort of condition applies. The details can be worked out if random BFs are accepted.

What Dave has brought up about imposing restrictions is a good point. Don't know that I agree with all his proposals (or any of them), but he's definitely correct about the need to limit or otherwise build in some sort of restrictions on attacking the WYN. There are already lots of pre-determined no attack before limits in the rules, why not just set the same for attacking the WYN? Exhaustion seems as good a cut-off as any. Would that be enough, simply saying the WYN can't be attacked before Turn X? Not as meaty as Dave's proposals, but better than nothing. Keeping with the spirit (I think) of what Dave was saying, there should be some sort of penalty for attacking the WYN. Occupying the WYN Cluster might provide VPs to the other side (say 50?) and allow the other side to call up Orion ships (1 per race at war with the occupiers per turn, maybe). If the Cluster changes hands, then any called-up Orions of the new occupier go away and the cycle begins again. Of course, that assumes that the Orion pirate rules aren't used, and I think we have to assume that. If the Orions are used, then go with Dave's suggestion of some sort of stepped up pirate activity against the occupiers.

Obviously, we're starting to discuss two unrelated issues here, but what the hell.

I'm willing to compromise on the ship numbers. I fully support using Chris' idea of counting battle forces as opposed to SEs; the only question is what number of BFs? What if we limited it to a max of 1-3 per round and make the number random (and not necessarily weighted evenly)? That's assuming we're assuming that the WYN will be able to effectively force an invader to fight at a single location, given the relatively small size of the Cluster. Dave's idea of having one battle per BF could work, too, but would be somewhat more work-intensive. Then again, how many times are we expecting the WYN to be invaded and survive?

Perhaps we could also say that only the defender can claim salvage (and he gets everything, attacker and defender salvage included)? The rationale is that the radiation barrier would effectively make extra-cluster salvage ops ineffective but once bases are established within the Cluster, then salvage can proceed normally.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:20 pm: Edit

A few quick points (FWIW):

* I agree about the defender of the Cluster getting all salvage. It's one of the great things about the Tholians.

* If the defenders of the Cluster don't accept the approach battle, there are no radiation effects. Period.

* I agree that the main thing that kept the Cluster from being invaded prior to the GW was the threat of the 'other guy' coming to defend the WYN. As to why the Coalition didn't invade Historically after the Kzinti were forced back to their Capital...? I don't have a good answer. Keep in mind that the Klingons didn't attack the Holdfast until later in the war, but they really could have at almost any time.

* If the Cluster is invaded at any point, enemy Reserve fleets within range can go to defend the Cluster, IF the Cluster player gives them permission to come in. (We really, really need the three-player rules here. ISC War has got to be done first.) This would end after a period of time, once the fish ship yards have cranked out enough forces so that they don't need outside help.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Let me ask you folks another question that may get you to think about why things work the way they do. Why is it that when a race invades any multi-system capital hex with x number of ships (let's say 250) that they all must fight at least one and as many as three approach battles with ONE battleforce at a time BEFORE they can press ahead with Capital assault? Surely 250 ships in open space could fan out across the capital region and attack every planet in the capital with one BF, but it doesn't work that way. Why not -- play balance.

The WYN hex is their capital hex. All I have suggested is that there be a special type of approach battle procedure that captures the flavor of crossing the barrier.

One difference is that the invader must fight no less than two and no more than six rounds of approach before they press ahead with the capital assault (twice the 'normal' approach success standard). Another aspect that I wanted to capture was once any ship got inside the Cluster and recovered, it would be far more capable than just about any other ship that just passed through the barrier. I pictured it much the same way as we now play using the Tholian web in F&E (where crippled ships in a Tholian web must be used in the next combat round if not pulled from the web) except that recovered ships were 'trapped' inside the Cluster not by the WYN but by the invader himself. While he could send any uncrippled and recovered ship back out side to make command limit room for the other ships in the next approach round, he would be hard pressed to do so (why would you want to replace a recovered ship with one suffering from the barrier effects?). I even made it tougher on recovered cripples as they must wait one additional round after they are crippled before they can pass back through the barrier (damaged life support systems and shields need to be in proper working order in order for the crew to survive the trip back through the barrier.). Here too, the invader is again left with a tough choice for the next approach round: use the recovered but crippled ship in the next approach round (taking up a command slot) or scuttle it or risk its capture by the WYN.

Bottomline for play balance: coming through the barrier and being greeted by WYN resistance needs to be a meat-grinder for ships suffering from the effects. Otherwise, it will be too easy for anyone to invade the Cluster, take a lot of damage in the form of dozens of cripples (and a handful of destroyed ship), reap the cash, fix their ships and come out much stronger in the long haul. Taking the Cluster needs to result in a lot of DEAD ships (and critical/valuable ships at that), not just cripples that can be repaired with the cash plundered from the Cluster.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:32 pm: Edit

The Klingons didn't invade the WYN that early in the General War because A: their fleets were busy wrecking the Kzinti, and B: they didn't need the resources because the war would be over soon, right?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Greg:

Read my proposed rules and see how the the opposing player can act as the 'WYN Player' without needed a third player to the 'be' the WYN.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Give the Wyns unlimited 1-1 DD attacks for the first X# of rounds of combat and half or no salvage? That will sufficiently pain the enemy that takes the Wyn cluster from them

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:51 pm: Edit

"I agree about the defender of the Cluster getting all salvage. It's one of the great things about the Tholians."
STRONG: The WYN gets ALL the salvage in my proposal -- an outside defender cannot get the the salvage team in to recover to lost goods.
==================

"If the defenders of the Cluster don't accept the approach battle, there are no radiation effects. Period."
STRONG: CONCUR - see proposal.
====================

"If the Cluster is invaded at any point, enemy Reserve fleets within range can go to defend the Cluster."
STRONG: SVC said that to my son Grant last year in this topic.

---

Quote:

By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 02:56 pm: Edit
Just curious but should the Kzinti be able to send a reserve to help the Wyn? Also if an attack fails do the Wyn join one side?(or have something like the tholians where if a pdu/base is destroyed the join the opposing side.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:18 pm: Edit
Yes, any race can reserve-react into the cluster to help defend it but would be under the same restrictions.

---

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Jimi:

My proposal does allow for unlimited 1-1 DirDam already but only with ships suffering from the barrier effects. Otherwise, recovered ships are fighting a 'normal' space battle.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Ahh, OK, let me re-read your proposal so I truly know what we're discussing then =)

By KC Grant (Kcg) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I think Chuck's latest set of rules really captures the WYN Radiation Zone effects quite well for F&E and should serve as a very good basis for playtest; I really like how approach battles work with big ships under the gun after emerging. I too would like to see these rules published in CL31 as part of a Civil Wars preview if there is room and if it is possible.

By Javier D Benvenuti (Javierb) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Has the thought been considered to exempt the WYN from battle force command limits or to give some kind of allowance to allow extra ships into a WYN battle force? That may go a way to making the WYN a tough nut to crack.

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Chuck, I think the main problem is in the recovery process. It is for me, anyway. You're right that this is no different than any other capital hex battle (or base battle, for that matter), with the exception of the recovery from the radiation zone. The only significant difference (and it's a biggie, I grant you) between allowing 1 BF through at a time and allowing more than 1 is the amount of ships that survive to recover.

Maybe playtesting both versions would help? It might be that allowing more than 1 BF through the belt at a time turns the WYN into a free lunch for the Coalition; if so, then, yes, I'd say either ditch the WYN altogether or go for your proposal.

One area where I do disagree is in the assumption that the WYN alone can sucessfully defend the Cluster from attack. I maintain that the rules should reflect that in order to defeat any serious attempt to take the Cluster, the WYN are going to have to count on third party help.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Chuck,
You're defending the wrong part(s) of your proposal. The current specific objection is to (WC.33), in particular the ludicrously slow rate at which ships may cross the zone. If 100 ships cross the zone, they're going to show up pretty much at the same time (say within half an hour), and they're not going to show up all in the same spot (unless the admiral's a moron). The WYN will catch some ships, which will regret things very briefly, and then the other invading ships (having been bought the chance to recover) will butcher the WYN like hogs.
As I see it, you've taken a correct premise (the WYN will savage individual ships, and even some small fleets) and expanded it beyond shouting distance of plausibility (the WYN will savage fleets of any size).
Double approach I'm fine with (I'm not fond of the approach mechanic per se, but I can rationalize what it represents); the incredible advantages the WYN have over zone-crippled ship are fine (over-the-top, for my tastes, but I'm willing to let that go); it's the laughable premise that the attacker has to funnel his ships through in groups not exceeding 15 units for the WYN to shoot at that gets me.
Let everything come through at once, have the one BF formed, fight the round under the effects of the zone, and move on. Heck, have the first two rounds be under zone effects, if you want.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 02:25 pm: Edit

What about also allowing the WYN to not only take all the salvage, but to use the money instantaneously to 'build' ships for the capital defense (kind of like 'activating' auxes for combat.

1EP for a small aux
3EP for a large aux
3EP for a small aux cruiser
5EP for a large aux cruiser
8EP for a small aux carrier
12Ep for a large aux carrier

these 'activated' ships cannot be used in the approach rounds but can be used to defend the capital.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Has the thought been considered to exempt the WYN from battle force command limits or to give some kind of allowance to allow extra ships into a WYN battle force? That may go a way to making the WYN a tough nut to crack.
STRONG: Yes; its in my proposal in this topic, but here's the text:

(WC.37) WYN Battle Auxiliary Groups

WYN Auxiliary Units use a special form of Battle Group (315.0).

(WC.371) In addition to using Battle groups, the WYNs can use any three Auxiliary Units (size class 3 or 4) to form a Battle Auxiliary Groups and have that group count as two units for command purposes.
(WC.372) Any number of Battle Auxiliary Groups may be formed up to the command limits of the flagship.
(WC.373) All other battle group rules apply the use of WYN Battle Auxiliary Groups.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 03:20 pm: Edit

I don't have time to study Chuck's proposal right now. I can say I have seen some incredibly bizarre things in this topic that just have nothing to do with how the cluster works. Kooky political rules like "if the Klingons capture Tholia, the Lyrans think about taking over the cluster" are just absurd nonsense. WYN aux ships cannot leave the cluster period. Those factory-unauthorized-modification ships aren't going to be allowed to leave. The Orion and Fish ships have no restrictions, So the whole L concept doesn't reflect anything and is gone.

Obviously, if 200 warships entered the cluster at once, the wyns would be crushed, so obviously, it just isn't possible for that to happen. The CL30 fiction story hints at the idea that you can't just enter/exit the cluster anywhere any time but have to look around for one of the transitory weak spots. Hence it is a good concept that one "command stack" of ships can enter the battle per round, that the wyns can and will confront every single ship that crosses the border, and that no ship would be able to get into a battle force without spending its first round in a radiation weakened condition.

As for Kzintis rescuing the wyns from a Klingon invasion or whatever, that would also be limited even more by the "looking for a hole" concept.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 03:38 pm: Edit

I notice that Scottt ran some numbers for operation Lionheart, back on April 12th, and I just thought I'd comment that the situation would probably be worse than he suggests.
In his example, the WYN deal 28 points of damage, which are used to cripple two CW and two DW; it seems to me that the better choice would be to kill both the PFW and the CWS, leaving 4 points that force a DW to self cripple for 2 minus points. The best line the Lyrans can put up for round two is 60 COMPOT, and has no attrition units and no scouts. So the Lyrans get savaged and the WYN pay for lost PFs out of Lyran salvage.
The net effect will be that specialty hulls will evaporate while zone damaged, with that the WYN get salvage. Carriers and PFTs will have the life expectancy of mayflies, I expect, with command ships not far behind.