DBA

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 06:30 pm: Edit

...more reference files:

Class History, Kzinti Strike Carriers: CL26 pg22
Class History, Hydran Pegasus: CL25 pg26

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Hydran at Start plus max builds.

Ships	Start	1	2	3	4	5	6	Max Build	Actual
PAL			1		1		1	3	2
LB	2							2	1
LM	3							3	1
RN	6		1		1		1	9	10
DG	6	1		1		1		9	4
UH				1				1	1
CV						1		1	1
HR	2		1	2	2	2	2	11	4
TR		1		1	1	1	1	5	1
LN	10							10	5
KN	6							6	2
DE				1		1		2	2
CR	5							5	2
HN	8	3	3	3	3	3	3	26	3
CU	6		3	3	3	3	3	21	3
AH				2		2		4	4
SC	4							4	3
TG	4							4	2
MB	2							2
FRD	2							2	1
VP	2							2
BP	2							2
AO								0
LGE	2							2
THR	2							2
HR								0
PGS	4							4
LNH								0
DDS								0
FCR	3							3
SP	1							1
LAS	1							1
SAS	2							2
CO								0
CAT								0
LNG	1							1
HNG	2							2
LTT								0
FTL	1							1
FTS	2							2
AP	2							2
LAV	2							2
SAV	3							3
FSP	1							1	0
FCP	1							1	0
MON	2							2

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Only one problem found in this list. They have one more RN than their max build. The only thing that converts to the RN is the DG and I can't see why anyone would do that. We could change RN to a DG it's the same cost and a +1 Adj AF.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Since a RN can be a sub of a DG then we can let it be because it could be explained that way. We cannot change a historical scenario becuase of personal preferences -- SVC has not allowed that in the past and I cannot see him starting now especially if the schedule COULD support the variation.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Hydran Ships that need to be accounted for.

Ref Ship
525.323 DDS 2 DD's converted on T6

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Doh. Didn't think of subing an RN for the DG.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 04:22 am: Edit

Here's a research project for someone who'd like to help:

I need someone to look at all the historical scenarios (SH and SL) from only Y168-71 that involves ONLY Lyran, Kzinti, Klingon or Hydran specialty ships and report ONLY their destroyed results from the historical outcome sections.

Rational: We cannot include both CVQs ever built in the scenario OOB for Y171F if one was destroyed in Y170S.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 05:14 am: Edit

VERY Notional Revised Kzinti OOB:

	Unit Hulls	Units	EP Value	Total EPs	Adj AF	Total AF
2K	2	DN	16.0	32.0	12	24
2K	6	CV	24.0	144.0	16	96
2K	5	CVL	18.0	90.0	12	60
2K	5	CVE	14.0	70.0	9	45
2K	3	CC	9.0	27.0	9	27
2K	11	BC	8.0	88.0	8	88
2K	5	CM	5.0	25.0	7	35
2K	7	MEC	6.0	42.0	6	42
2K	12	CL	6.0	72.0	6	72
2K	3	DD	6.0	18.0	6	18
2K	18	FF	2.5	45.0	4	72
2K	16	EFF	3.5	56.0	2	32
2K	7	DF	4.5	31.5	4	28
2K	4	SF	3.5	14.0	3	12
2K	1	TGC	8.0	8.0	8	8
2K	2	TGT	6.0	12.0	4	8
2K	1	FRD	10.0	10.0	1	1
2K	6	VP	7.0	42.0	3	18
2K	4	BP	6.0	24.0	2	8
	118			850.5		694
.
AO	2	DNL	16.0	32.0	11	22
AO	1	DDV	20.0	20.0	9	9
AO	2	DD	6.0	12.0	6	12
AO	3	FKE	4.0	12.0	4	12
AO	3	FFK	3.0	9.0	5	15
AO	2	BF	10.0	20.0	7	14
AO	5	CLD	9.0	45.0	8	40
AO	2	FCR	9.5	19.0	2	4
AO	1	LAD	12.0	12.0	8	8
AO	3	SAD	8.0	24.0	5	15
AO	1	LAS	6.0	6.0	3	3
AO	1	SAS	4.0	4.0	2	2
AO	-9	CL	6.0	-54.0	6	-54
AO	4	CLE	7.0	28.0	4	16
AO	2	SP	3.0	6.0	3	6
	23			195.0		124
.
CO	1	DD	6.0	6.0	6	6
CO	2	SDF	5.5	11.0	5	10
CO	1	CLG	6.0	6.0	3	3
CO	2	FFG	2.5	5.0	2	4
CO	2	LAV	16.0	32.0	13	26
CO	3	SAV	8.0	24.0	6	18
CO	1	FTL	6.0	6.0	5	5
CO	2	FTS	3.0	6.0	2	4
CO	1	MON	8.0	8.0	10	10
CO	1	M-PAL-V	8.0	8.0	6	6
CO	-6	FF	2.5	-15.0	4	-24
CO	-3	CM	5.0	9.0	7	-21
CO	2	MSC	8.0	16.0	8	16
CO	1	LTT	5.0	5.0	6	6
CO	4	TP	2.0	8.0	1	4
	14			135.0		73
.
FO	1	CD	11.0	11.0	9	9
FO	1	DDE	7.0	7.0	4	4
FO				0.0		0
	2			18.0		13
.
PO				0.0		0
PO	1	PRD	3.0	3.0	1	1
	1			3.0		1

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 05:20 am: Edit

I'll start looking at the Scenarios. I'll start at SH1 in the morning. If someone wants to start on the SL's we can get it done quicker.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 06:46 am: Edit

Here's an interesdting one.

R9.68 Pickett Heavy Survey Cruiser. ...the hull for the conversion was not available until after the fall of the Hydran Capital. One of the escaping Ranger-class cruisers had been badly-damaged, and the decision was made to use it as a survey cruiser, to find more resources to rebuild the Kingdom.

Maybe we could get this added since it shows the Hydrans did add new SRs after the war started. This ability to add a SR to the Hydran forces would help the Hydrans to pay to rebuild the fleet.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 08:42 am: Edit

The SL Scenarios:

Scenario	Date	Ship Change	Ship Change	Description
SL 8.0	Y170	lost D7	captured D7	Hydrans captuerd and converted Anarchist.
SL 9.0	Y170	n-c	n-c	Continued existence of D7H indicates it survived into Y171.

Note: I went through CL#1-4 (up to SL 87.0) There seem to be several "incidents" within the time frame of the Tempest scenario however no indication of what the actual results were from the battles are given in the scenario description.

Sidebar for Strat Ops: (SL 65.0) In Y171 the Klingons sent a D7N (not yet represented in the game (but possibly will be soon) to the Romulans to negotiate their entry into the war. Fed-Rom-Kling fight took place no outcome given but the ship did leave Klingon space.

Also note I will help with this as I can inserting information you can use and build from. I will be working today (following Church) so will not be able to continue until later. I will check back to see if progress was made and can start from where someone leaves off so please make a note of your progress.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 11:44 am: Edit

Okay got back and had some time to run through a few more...

Nothing to report for CL 5-10. Although the History given in CL5 does say specifically that the Klingons were given Mauler Tech from the Romulans in Y169. (That ship has sailed however.)

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:06 pm: Edit

D7N & D7H cannot be added to Tempest as they don't exist in F&E (yet).

The Pickett cannot be added to Tempest as the Hydran Capital is still operational.

If this Warbook (and therefore this update) is published after SO then yes we do need to add them.

Interesting thought... Since we have the ships factors we could add them as a seperate (SO: or NO: ) line item in the OOBs but we would be locked into those ships for that product; SVC would have to clear that first.

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:16 pm: Edit

>D7N & D7H cannot be added to Tempest as they
>don't exist in F&E (yet).

The published rules set allows for captured ships to be converted to your technology.

The D7H can be represented by a captured D7 counter in the Hydran Fleet TOE and replaced with a different counter with appropriate factors at a later date when the product that includes it is published.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Good idea -- I cannot see why we could not add a captured D7 to the Hydran OOB. I'll add one to the Tempest 2K OOB and we can replace it where the D7H is published.

BTW does anyone know when the D7H was destroyed?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Here's another research project:

Check the SFB L/K/Z/H R-sections and MSC for limited production ships and report cases of "only two where ever built" and especially if it then reports "and one was destroyed in the Klingon invasion of Y170..."

By Dale Lloyd Fields (Dylkha) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 02:04 pm: Edit

I don't have any SFB stuff, but if it helps, I could comb through the Hydran section of Module Prime Alpha and see if any usable details are given there.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 04:49 pm: Edit

The SL Scenarios (continued):

Scenario	Date	Ship Change	Ship Change	Description
SL140.0	Y170	Kzinti Lost EFF	n/a	From description possibly took place in the Marquis Area. Andro encounter heavily damaged the CVL, CL, DD and the EFF(destroyed).

Okay I ran through CL 11-15 and found only one (listed above). The ship was destroyed so I guess it matters even though it was lost to a non-combatant of the GW...your call.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 05:41 pm: Edit

The SL Scenarios:

The SL Scenarios:
Scenario	Date	Ship Change	Ship Change	Description
SL 8.0	Y170	Kling lost D7	Hyd captured D7	Hydrans captuerd and converted Anarchist. No indication when the D7H was destroyed.
SL 9.0	Y170	n-c	n-c	Continued existence of D7H indicates it survived into Y171.
SL140.0	Y170	Kzinti Lost EFF	n/a	From description possibly took place in the Marquis Area. Andro encounter heavily damaged the CVL, CL, DD and the EFF(destroyed).
SL175.0	Y170	Hydrans lost LB Apocrapha and Dragoon Glorius	n/a	The Historical outcome describes how the Klingons and Hydrans battled to no effect. Then goes on to say that the two Hydran ships met their end at the hands of the Lyrans immediately following the scenario (sold out by the Orions).

Okay I have gone through them all...there was only 1 more CL scenario that indicate that anything was lost btwn the dates requested. I was kind of shocked that there weren't more losses.

I have listed the entire table for ease of use.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Dale: any destroyed specialty ships from PD RPG from the above dates would be useful -- thanks.

Lar: Thanks for covering the CL scenarios -- nice report. Based on your research so far we only need to account for the D7H and AO's 2xDDS as the others are "within the realm" of the possible schedule -- we'll see what Ryan has to report on SHs and add any other SFB R-section data to it also.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 06:30 pm: Edit

R6 SH192. Y169. THR and 3 FCRs sent to Hydran Exp. Historical Outcome: Some of the Hydrans managed to break through, but it proved to be a one-way mission. The lack of the FCRs severely handicapped the Hydran First Fleet as it struggled to hold back the Klingon attack.

(Comments) Since this is F169 and both the F171 and S173 both show the Hydrans as having 3 FCRs we need to plan the replacements when we figure the Hydran Economics. This may explain why the Hydrans only have 3 Def Brigades since they had to replace 3 FCRs.

R7 SH202. Y169. LGE attached to Expeditionary fleet sent on one way mission to attack Klingon Base. Destroyed by Klingon forces before the LGE could rejoin fleet or return home.

R9.18 on the D7H says it got a plus refit in Y173 so it survivied until at least then.

I don't have/can'nt find R8 and R9.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Mike:

I need your assistance -- since you ARE the best at analyzing and evaluating F&E victory conditions, would you mind looking over those listed in (602.3) during this update process and make sure we don't overlook a "trick key" that makes victory for one side too easy. Also, do the current VCs make sense and if not, why?

Thanks,
Chuck

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Just passing through, but I don't see that anyone has mentioned that the Klingons get a certain number of stasis modules (one every Spring turn, starting in 169) that should be accounted for.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Good point -- thanks Dave.

There is one at start D7A and we need to account for the Y169S, Y170S and Y171S SFG modules. The Y171S SFG should be assigned to and installed on one D5A. We'll wait and see how the overall balance looks for determination on the other two SFG modules.