(5SK.0) SKIFFS IN F&E
Skiffs are used by local planetary police to control who comes and goes from their planetary space. While police craft, skiffs are armed.

(5SK.1) DEPLOYMENT
(5SK.11) Players can deploy skiffs for police patrols.
Up to six skiffs can be deployed at a colony, a base station, a battle station, or a minor planet.
Up to 12 skiffs can be deployed at a large planet, sector base, or starbase.
Skiffs cannot be deployed on operational bases, convoys, FRDs, or anything else not provided above.
(5SK.12) Each skiff costs one EP. They can be purchased in the production phase and deployed at any authorized location within the supply grid that paid for them. There is no limit to the number that can be produced in a given turn, but skiffs must be deployed when purchased and there is (above) a limit to the number of places and number at each place.

(5SK.2) OPERATIONS
(5SK.21) Movement: Skiffs cannot move, retreat, or pin.
(5SK.22) Combat: Skiffs have one combat factor and no crippled status.
(5SK.23) Battle Forces: All skiffs deployed at a given location can be (but do not have to be) included in any battle force for that location (other than an approach battle). They do not count against the attrition limit or command limits.
(5SK.24) Arrest power: Whenever an enemy or pirate vessel enters a hex where skiffs are based, the skiffs will attempt to arrest the enemy or pirate. The attempt automatically fails and has no game effect whatsoever.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:39 am: Edit

Is there going to be a limit to the number of skiffs produced each turn?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:50 am: Edit

No.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:54 am: Edit

D'Oh!

Keep on Truckin'!

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:56 am: Edit

Well, that certainly beefs up defences. But they are of mariginal use if one plays them like fighters or PFs in terms of damage. At the very least, a mauler can pop up and destroy 12 of these for 14 damage. As they cost 12EP, that's a fantastic deal for the attacker, even if he doesn't have a mauler.

With the attacker getting such a great deal, and the fact that there is no way to have "reserve" skiffs, I can only see these being used to add to maxed-out capital defences (instead of an extra SB which could be destroyed in the upgrade).

There is a possibility that players may build just one or two of these on places already heavily defended, on the basis that if the enemy uses a DD attack on so few skiffs, something else more expensive didn't get DDd on instead.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:58 am: Edit

One EP each? Ouch. Any special directed damage rules, such as, can more than one be killed with directed damage per round? Can I replenish them between combat rounds like an independent GCE?

And do they scatter in frustration if attacked with a mercenary Orion?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Well I can see Capital Planets just got another 24+ COMPOT.

Between the SB and the Large Planet the Captial is on. Any other Large planets in the C Hex also got another 12.

And since they dont count vs Attrition or Command limits theres no reason not to deploy them.

12 Skiff pts=12EP=1-1 EP/Compot
2PDU=6\12=14EP=1-1.2

But then again the Skiff dont count against the maximum number of PDU's you can have on a planet.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Kenneth.

The PDUs are much harder to kill than the Skiffs, unless, of course, SVC rules that you can only DD skiffs one at a time.

I'm wondering if this is some kind of whacky response to Loren's pessimism over in the SFB threads.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:25 pm: Edit

At one EP each they are...well hugely expensive. But I can see that they would be used. I would like them to be 0.5 EP like PFs, but I can see the need for them to be more as they have few limitations.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Do Skiff's effect Supply in adjacent hexes? (I assume no).

I agree w/ Chris at 1EP each, for 1 COMPOT they are too expensive for their little bonus (outside all command limits).

Waste of coin counters to me so far.

I would totally smoke any w/ DB raids (pay DB EPs to kill 2-3 1EP Skiffs, sign me up for that).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:03 pm: Edit

You can DD as many skiffs as you want in one shot.

Skiffs do not affect supply in adajcent hexes.

Right, this is a Loren-inspired rule. He wanted skiffs and this is what they would look like.

Original post said you buy in production phase and cannot stockpile spares so you don't get to buy more between combat rounds.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Oh my GOD!

I just said you'd see Skiff in SFB before you'd see the truck which was in response to Jeff Wile wondering if the truck would have any place in F&E (and saying probably not).

Oy vay (or however you spell it).

This is retribution for what I'm doing with the Selts... I'm sure... (hmm...hmm, hmm... hmmwhaa hahahahahaha!)

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:13 pm: Edit

I think it would be best to have a few (?2-4)free skiffs per year and only allow 1 to be deployed per planet/base per year.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:22 pm: Edit

OR

How about we pretend that this never happend and move on?

Pretty please?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:34 pm: Edit

I dont have my rules with me... was not the Skiff YIS something like year 140?

Whatever year the service date was, it almost certainly was prior to the General War (Fall,168).

Could that be a justification for giving all major and minor planets a "skiff flotilla" at start?

(say that the number of police skiffs is prorated for each race dependent on the number of Battle stations in service at the start of the GW?

For example, IIRC the Federation has 34 x BTS, does that mean we could have 34 skiffs to assign with the at start forces (up to the limits set in rule 5SK.1(and sub rules 5SK.11 and 5 SK.12)?

David Slatters post at 1:13pm sounds reasonable to me... the only modification to davids idea that I would suggest is to give the races with "bigger" economies more skiffs and smaller races with comparatively few free skiffs.

for example, let the Fed, Klingons and Lyrans have 3 free skiffs per year while the smaller races (such as the Kzinti, Hydran, Gorn and Tholians) have 1-2 per year.

the Romulans are the "Joker" in the game...they start with a smaller economy and activate a large portion of on map provinces... might have to assign them as a small race at start, and some time later (after turn 10-14?) increase the number of free skiffs that they produce.

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:51 pm: Edit

This really does deserve to be playtested, guys. Skiff flotillas are very expensive to maintain at strength and don't come back for free like fighters do. They do have the benefit of being able to be instantly deployed, so I can see them being used on the defence.

Leave out free skiffs and keep the unlimited deployment rate per turn. Make players pay for them if they want them.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:51 pm: Edit

The Fed Skiffs would be Blue and White and the lead Skiff would be called "Papa Skiff".

Seriously, economies like the Kzinti and Hydrans would be hard pressed to spend 1 EP on these things at the openings of the war. Klingons and Lyrans should never build them as they detract from their avilable cash used for repairs and construction and not to mention without another ability have zero usefulness for races on the offensive. There is also the other factor of (psychologically by building defenses) showing a sign of weakness.

Now if they were limited and free every turn like was suggested above...(although there is still no real secondary use for them)...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Rule quote: "(5SK.12) Each skiff costs one EP. They can be purchased in the production phase and deployed at any authorized location within the supply grid that paid for them. There is no limit to the number that can be produced in a given turn, but skiffs must be deployed when purchased and there is (above) a limit to the number of places and number at each place."

Would there be a benefit if you were allowed to "transfer" skiffs from its original deployment, say to a new captured (or recaptured) minor or major world?

Such a transfer could be a new tug mission, or maybe a special assignment for a civilian or military convoy counter.

I'm thinking that at 1 EP per skiff, they are rather expensive, but if you could transfer skiffs purchased in prior turns, it might help defend the captured planets from any expected enemy counter attack. (might actually benefit the coalition in the early F&E game (turns 1-10) more than the alliance.)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:01 pm: Edit

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Quote:

might actually benefit the coalition in the early F&E game (turns 1-10) more than the alliance.

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:02 pm: Edit

I think Free Skiff is a very bad route to go down. We do not need more free attrition in the game.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:07 pm: Edit

No free skiffs. No transfers. If you don't liek this rule, blame Loren.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Fair enough.

Loren!!!!!!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:15 pm: Edit

What?!?! I wasn't even IN the F&E section!

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Can skiffs be deployed at each location in 5SK.11? So if I have a large planet with a starbase and a sector base, could I have 12 or 36 skiffs?

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 02:37 pm: Edit

A set number of skiffs as a part of the starting forces, like National Guard ships, are not out of the question, IMO. One skiff per planetary PDU, two for a border BATS, one for a non-border BATS, four for a non-capitol hex SB and six for a Capitol Hex SB “feels right” to me.

The questions that skiffs raise are numerous.

1) Pin count – How do we count skiffs?
2) Raids – Do Skiffs react? How many can react? Can they be targets?
3) Piracy -- Do Skiffs react? How many can react? Can they be targets? How do they affect planetary EP raids?
4) Espionage/Sabotage -- Can Skiffs be targets? Do they affect prime team rolls?
5) Garrison Duties – Can they be used instead of ships to garrison captured planets?
6) Single Combat – How many skiffs are a “single ship equivalent?” What is their “crippled” or “destroyed” state? Like attrition units or like ships?
7) Supply – How do Skiffs affect supply determination? What is their unsupplied state (This is complicated, think Base stations versus planets and BATS/SB)?

Maybe Skiffs can be in as a part of the “F&E Warbook” where all the interactions can be laid out.

I think Skiffs are more trouble then they are worth, given the above rules interaction considerations.