You will see these at hardpoints. They are worth it for a hex you know will be attacked. I like skiffs. And we need them because they are part of SFB now. What about auxiliary cruisers?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Do we need coins representing all the shuttlecraft in a hex?

How about all those SAMS and PAMS and plethora of other bases?

Could we break up PDUs so that parts of them are killed at a time and the rest remains?

Just becuase something is in SFB at the tactical level does not mean it should be in a Game of F&E at the strategic level.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 04:09 pm: Edit

And crew, don't forget crew.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Be careful what you wish for, Chris.

Be careful what you wish for, Alan.

All skiffs from one base can be in the battle force. If multiple bases are in a hex, only one can send its skiffs.

Pin count: They don't count. The original rules post said that. Go read it.

Raids: They cannot react. Raids can target one skiff (but why?)

Piracy: they cannot react. They can be targets (but why?). They would have the same effect on pirate raids on the planet/base as fighters.

Espionage: Skiffs can be the target (but why?). They have no effect on prime team rolls.

Skiffs cannot garrison.

Skiffs are treated like fighters (six skiffs = a ship equivalent) for single combat.

Skiffs are always in supply and never affect supply.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Ah yes, crew counts are desperately needed.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 04:31 pm: Edit

CFant: Careful, that's what happened to me. I said something and suddenly I read "Careful what you wish for." and here we are...

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Too late....

See Shuttle Flocks

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Actually, this would be similar to the police ship rule, except that since you're taking them away from civilians you have to compensate them for it. And the unlimited construction would be accounted for in their description in CL#23: "Thousands upon thousands".

But strategically, it is actually worth purchasing these for points that you are going to or HAVE to defend. If your enemy spends a round killing skiffs, that's one round he isn't killing PDUs and/or is letting you decide where the damage is going. And after the PDUs are gone tough choice there: Kill 12 skiffs that cost 12 EPs or kill that 4EW scout that costs ~13 EPs, is really affecting the battle, and can't be replaced as easily.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Hmmm, what else can we come up with....

I KNOW!!

A Mass FLight of Refugee Rule.

We need this, it is unfathomable to continue to play F&E without accounting for all the displaced civilians.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Refits dude, your not thinking epic enough.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Cfant

That rule was already accounted for under R7.0.

Klingons REALLY hate that rule.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 06:46 pm: Edit

You know, in a way, this would would materially affect future expansions F&E.

Without skiffs, there would be very few fighters counters/attrition units to account for. (the Romulans may operated some, IIRC, they were sublight only, prior to the treaty of smarba (sp?) in SFH. I dont recall if they were part of module Y1.)

With Skiffs, the defending forces now have damage sponges/attrition units without having fighters or PF's in the game.

It would seriously change Civil Wars, Early Wars, and any other F&E module expansions prior to Year 168/GW.

It would certainly make capturing planets or destroying bases more difficult.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 06:48 pm: Edit

SVC

If only one "base" can send it's skiffs, can the others in the hex send more after the first ones die? i.e. In a Capitol hex that has the maximum amount deployed, can the other planets send theirs over to help the Capitol itself? Or would these be treated like PDU fighters, no transfers until the PDUs are destroyed on the planet they're over?

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Just say "NOOOO!!!!!" to skiffs in F&E!

Methinks SVC must have been reading a copy of the rules from Campaign for North Africa recently. :-)

In all seriousness folks, please remember that F&E is the _strategic_ compontent of the SFU game system, and not every little thing from SFB needs to have an explicit representation in F&E. (Given the trend started by cfant's comment above, I dare not mention any specific examples!) If you want to know where the skiff's are in F&E, just pretend that sometimes the "police ship" called up for emergency response to a raid is actually 3-4 skiffs, pretend that some of the fighter factors on a few planets are actually skiffs, etc. We don't need to waste perfectly good counters on something so trivial!

Cheers,
Jason

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:04 pm: Edit

ONE WORD: TRIBBLES

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:10 pm: Edit

But seriously, 6 factors (12 factors) is not trivial. And stop squawking about strategic, we move individual ships, count drones and build individual fighter factors in this game. F&E goes right down to tactics.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Jschaff

Actually some of the fighter factors on planets are Bombers and they're considering putting them in. And you don't need counters for skiffs, just note that any particular base/planet has them or not.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Lar

Two Words: Tribble Launcher.

It's in GPD.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:18 pm: Edit

On the first hex (hex 0101) of the F&E map, place one tribble. On the second hex (hex 0102), two tribbles. On the third hex, four tribbles. On the fifth hex, eight tribbles. (remember the story of the chessboard and rice?)

How many tribbles are on the last hex?

How many tribbles in total?

How many tribbles in Klingon space?

Hee Hee Hee....

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 08:18 pm: Edit

How many tribbles are on the last hex?
There are 1159 F&E hexes. My Excel file quit at 1025 at which point there were: 8.9885E+307 Tribbles on that hex.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Ah helll, that's what I should have wished for!

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Hehehehehe, this is all rather quite insane.

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 10:01 pm: Edit

can I ask what is a skiff

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Mchael H. Oliver:

They were published in Module 8, System Defense Command, copy right 2004.

it reads (inpart):

quote: "A new class of ships for Star Fleet Battles, these are typical of the thousands upon thousands of small star ships in use around the galaxy. Skiffs (which is both the overall catagory and the seeker/security sub-type) operate under the same rules as "interceptors" (K3.0) but can never have warp packs and were available from Y130. None of them carry T bombs. None had shuttle bays; all had a "mechlink" on their tractor beam to allow them to carry a standard admin shuttle. externally. (some docked a "cargo pack" with 25 points of cargo - one box - at this location to increase cargo capacity.)

All skiffs could land on planets (powered or gravity for courier, those and aerodynamic for skiff). All skiffs have an explosion strength of one point. Most skiffs have a probe launcher, but it only contains two probes instead of the standard 5. (some times replaced with a prospecting charge canon.) Cargo boxes on skiffs only hold 25 points of cargo. NWO's use HDW rules. (Annex#8H)."

See also rules, R1.52, R1.53 and R1.54.

Hope this helps!

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 10:54 pm: Edit

thank you....jeff..