I'm just curious as to how the Tholains lost their larger ships then. The NDD is almost a DN in that era and in some cases is better. I don't see how the Klingons (with the small size of EY fleets) was able to mass enough ships to make a serious drive against Tholia against a pure X-fleet (for that era).

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Alan. 3. It lacks the power to safely (i.e., without getting hunted down and killed) use the PCs in an EW environment.
4. Floating map - you may be right. I never play with those, so I wouldn't know for sure

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Andy;

Floating map versus fixed map is, I believe, one of those great divides among SFB players. For myself, I hate having "impenetrable walls" in space. Partly it's a "suspension of disbelief" thing. What are these walls in terms of actual (SFB) physics? How is it possible to pin a ship in a corner in space? It's a game artifact pure and simple.

But I am aware that many others (you apparently included) hate playing on floating maps as much as I hate playing on fixed maps. And never the twain shall meet. (Or at least, they only meet rarely.)

That may also, incidently, explain our different assessments of the NFF in EY scenarios. On a floating map the NFF can hang back at long range, charge its phaser capacitors and PCs, make a high speed attack run, and then turn away and increase separation. Once it has achieved adequate separation from the much slower EY opponents, it reduces speed to recharge/repeat the process. In the meantime, the accompanying Patrol Corvettes harass the enemy ships. Strangely enough, you are treating the rapid-fire PC like a multi-turn arming weapon when you do this, but then, it is the only overloadable heavy weapon during the Early Years. The tactic can work only because of the absolute speed superiority of the Tholians, and then only on a fixed map.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Thyrm: In your last sentence, is `only on a fixed map' meant to read `only on a floating map'?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Tkinias;

Good catch. I did indeed mean to say "only on a floating map."

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Alan. Oh, I don't believe in walls, just "leaving the area." Regardless, with floating maps, I can conquer the known galaxy with the Tholians, just using PCs (and the NDDs for base assaults). On your NFFs, they still have a significant EW problem due to their power curve. They'll be shooting vs a 1 shift since they can't afford to 1. hold PCs and 2. move fast with 4 EW.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

on the question of freighter engines. it's not that they are a generation behind, it's that they are a different design, FAR more efficiant to operate, but slower then even the first generation of warp drives.

as any technology eveolves it improves in two different directions, efficiancy and performance. the military ships get the performance engines, the freighter engines are the outgrowth of the efficiancy push

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

The EY Tholians are just not that tough.

1. Command Rating. Big limits on fleet sizes.
2. Web Casters. They only have 2 NDDs; no other ships have WC.
3. Duels. While a PC can take out a D4, one-on-one, the NFF cannot.
4. Squadrons. 3 D4s have a decent chance of beating 3 PCs - the Tholian speed and shielding advantages go away quickly in multiple ship battles.

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Andy;

The NFF generates 16 power, plus 1 point of reserve power. It has several options, but here's one. It has previously fully charged the phasers and charged both PC capacitors with 3 points of power, allowing either 2 overloaded shots for 4 standard shots depending on how I decide - during the turn - to press the attack. That's a total of 3 points holding energy. I put 3 points into ECCM and will use the battery for the 4th point if I decide it's necessary. Housekeeping costs 2.5 points, for a total of 8.5 points allocated to "non-movement" functions. The remaining 7.5 points give me a speed of 22. Against an EY ship, even a Y-series like the D4, that's fast enough. I am forgoing some small amount of potential damage within overload range (and depending on what the opponent is doing I may not even want to put the NFF in overload range), but will gladly do so if it gives me the speed to control the fight. Against W-series opponents such as D3s, I can afford to slow down a bit more and hold more energy in the particle cannon capacitors.

Note that I'm not suggesting doing this in a single ship duel. I'm using the NFF for fire support in a squadron action. There will be Patrol Corvettes present as well.

Note also that I'm not in love with the NFF. I think it is the least useful of the Neo-Tholians, not only in absolute terms but relative to its BPV as well. And at 75 BPV it is far inferior to the 80 BPV (Archeo) Tholian DD. But against EY opponents it can still give good service.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Brezgonne;

Regarding CR bonus in Tholian space, I (and I think Andy) were discussing this in regards to a Tholian offensive campaign to capture territory - by definition outside of Tholian space. I generally agree with your other comments.

Gotta run. Monday Night Football is starting.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 08:14 am: Edit

Alan. The NFF is fine for the first pass - then it has to reload. That's when it has problems. Plus, its Phaser arcs are pretty horrible.

Daniel. One-on-One, a PC will easily destroy a D4. However, when there are 6 DISR and 6-12 Ph-2s firing at a single PC with every volley, its not long before they begin taking internals - something PCs don't do well. 3 D4s can also put out enough drones to affect maneuver, something a single one can't.

I agree on the W-class - they're just targets for the Tholians.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 08:22 am: Edit

It doesn't matter. The fact that the PCs and NFFs can move speed 30 and the D4s cannot will make all the difference. They go in, unload the alpha strike, and then buzz off.

6DSR and 12p-2 at R5 do an average of 12(DSR) and ? 8-12 (P2), barely enough to penetrate a shield. At R5, the P-1s will cause major problems for a D4, and the PCs have the speed to run off and thus disallow R4.

Not sure what EW will do to that however. D4s could presumably choose to go slow and up the EW, but that's effectively starcastling, where the slow fleet will always have an advantage unless the fast fleet has seeking weapons.

BTW, I'm assuming that EY DSR cannot overload. If they can, my analysis is bunk.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 08:50 am: Edit

David Slatter;

Correct. EY disruptors cannot be overloaded.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:57 pm: Edit

David. EW matters

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 06:02 pm: Edit

When the Tholians arrive, they have no territory, so they don't get to use their command advantage anywhere. It isn't clear when the advantage comes into effect so they may very well be fighting the entire early years period without the advantage. That means the Dyson sphere is their only decent command platform. My guess is that at least one NDD was lost in a pinning engagement type of action away from the sphere (20 disruptors and 50 phasers at moderate range will hammer even the NDD).

Remember that the Tholians had to eliminate a major Klingon fleet when they first arrived (planned to invade the Romulans). So they may have lost one or more Neo ships in the initial actions. While D3 are "slaughter fodder", enough of them on the defensive can score damage.

Note that while the 3 on 3 is debatable between D4s and PCs, 9 on 4 is a slaughter (of the PCs).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 04:09 am: Edit

It sounds like the Tholians would have a PC command variant for the early years until the DD and C classes come out. They would surely have addressed the problem. I'll propose it in a new ships suggestion under SFB in about 3 hours when I have time.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 05:20 am: Edit

remember that the EW is limited in the EY era as well, it still matters, but it's not as significant as during the GW. remember that the PC's will be firing from capacitors during their attack run so they will have a smidge more power available for EW then disrupter armed ships

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

It would be an interesting non-historical EY scenario to suggest that the Neo-Tholians arrive along with the Tholians proper and start tearing up the Alpha Octant. The galactic powers would be getting their first Y-class ships, but the neo-Tholians would be 'Andromedan' by proportion.

...just a sick thought.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 08:36 pm: Edit

David S, I would more put is as the Tholians could have used a PC command variant. Wanting and having are two different things. Given there may not have been any naval "higher command" in those that escaped, it could be that it took until the introduction of the DD and C to figure out how to overcome the need. This might especially be the case if they also had no one with experience to build the necessary hardware to provide the added capabilities.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 08:20 am: Edit

Can Early Years be moved closer to the front burner following ISCWar? Or are you set on doing AndroWar or Civil Wars?

I'd like to see a Pre-war product follow a post war product to stretch the timeline a bit in both directions.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 09:01 am: Edit

I think it would be very important to coordinate Early Wars with Module Y2; we want to ensure to match the necessary ships between the two products. I wouldn't want to see Early Wars produced based only on module Y1 and wouldn't want to see Y2 come out, only to force bad design in Early Wars.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:16 am: Edit

I can agree with that. ISCwar is a ways off so that might allow for Y2 to happen first

By Trab Kadar (Trab) on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 12:23 pm: Edit

I can tell you that I have wanted Civil Wars even before ISC Wars. IMHO, based upon playing the 4PW scenario, I cannot see module being very interesting (if anything it would be frustrating to play based on all the limitations of the era).

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 01:54 pm: Edit

The added interest of Early Wars is the extra races (Carnivons and Paravians) and the more fluid borders. 4PW is basically GW with limiations. Early Wars is practically a different galaxy as many of those standard assumptions of "distance from point A to point B" will have to be thrown out.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 07:41 am: Edit

Hi!


One thing that might be handy to see in a Y-era supplement would be the rules for expansion, colonization and fortification of the varied regions of the Octant upon which the Powers had yet to make their mark - and not just for the Alpha races.

If Omega and the Magellanics manage to make he crossing into Fed and Empire, having a set of suitable rules to cover the fluid borders seen in both settings would facilitate the process - with a healthy dose of specific rules to cover the locals' unique circumstances, no doubt!

(Plus, if the 'General War' game system gets off the ground, a poerted over ruleset for exploration/colonization/fortification would make it easier to add in new settings into that game. It might be more interesting for some Trek fans to be able to factor in other aspects of interstellar governance, other than combat...)

Star Fleet Universe meets Civililization IV, perhaps?


Gary