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>> Despite fighting the Klingon AD5 and wandering around allied Kzinti MECs for four years during strategy meetings, the Feds come up with an NCL escort inferior to both and only a marginal improvement on the prior design.

Very true. The comparison of the Fed escorts to things like FHM, SPM, CWE, DWE, HDE, or BDE are all pretty unfavorable. The Feds are the fighter empire, certainly not the escort empire!

--Mike

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 - 03:02 pm: Edit

And there is no good reason for Fed escorts to be weak. The fed escorts in SFB are some of the best in the game.

IMAO Fed escorts are the main reasons S8 forbids taking an escort without taking the carrier, because fed escorts combine all the other fed goodness with having Gatling phasers.

I could see making Fed escorts more expensive, because you need to refit with this exotic system you don't use anywhere else, but weaker?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Looking at the Gorns since I will be playing them for the first time in a few turns.

1. They seem short of cash to do the things they want to do, sort of like the Kzinti (not as bad as Hydrans.) although this could be dependent on where the Romulans go.

2. The CL->CCH upgrade looks like a keeper. So do CL->CVS, HD->CMV, DD->BFR, and HD->MSC (major).

3. Gorn ships seem like better value than Fed ships, so I will plan to send max Fed EPs to the Gorns.

4. This is especially true since they only get 6 FFF / year and CVAs will be available in this game...

5. Their fleet is terrible. I mean, this is true of almost every starting fleet except the Klingons, but yikes.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Grahan

I would disagree in saying the Feds have the worst escorts.

It does change with the expansions, but if we start with just F&E2010...

...the Roms are clearly the worst - in having NO Heavy Escort.

The NEC at 4/7 is better than the SP at 3/7.

The NAC at 5/7 is far better than the SP at 4/7.

I accept the DE is expensive - but at least it's a 5 compot Light Hull.

Kzinti and Hydrans only have 2/4 Light Escorts and Klingons have to wait afew turns to get a 4/5 Light Escort.

And when the 3rd Way comes along - all those lovely free FCR factors!

I accept with the Expansions, the Federation do not score highly with excellent escorts though.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 - 02:39 pm: Edit

try the Militant Federation optional start. Just never go back to the real Federation - it is too disappointing.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 13, 2023 - 06:07 am: Edit

From an active scenario thread, Paul Howard wrote:

---

Quote:

With only 2 SFGs being used now, the B10VAA/B10SAA has more value I think - if there is too much risk (or too little reward) of using the SFG's - you don't use it.

---

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, January 13, 2023 - 01:09 pm: Edit

I think Paul's point is that if one puts a B10AA SSC on the line alone, it is vulnerable to standard (40 point) directed damage even if the SFG is not used.

An escorted B10 carrier group (B10AA as light carrier, B10VAA, B10SAA) is much better protected on the line if the SFG is not used.

Since battleforces are created in secret and revealed simultaneously, the Klingon player does not know in advance if a good opportunity to use an SFG will present itself.

If an SFG is used, then that B10 becomes crippleable at the 1:1 directed damage level (312.24) of 20 points, regardless of if it was SSC or in a group, as the B10 leaves the group and becomes vulnerable in order to use the SFG.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 24, 2023 - 02:43 am: Edit

Thomas

20 points is high (and 30 by the Hydrans* or Gorns or expansions, if the B10 was in form) - but not impossible

But a crippled B10XAA in a group is pretty safe in pursuit.


Mike

Correct.

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 08:19 am: Edit

I was just looking over the notes for "Firestorm" and noticed that a minor shipyard is placed at Remus, which is not allowed because it's a capital hex.

IF IT IS IN A PUBLISHED SCENARIO, IT IS ALLOWED. JUST BECAUSE PLAYERS AREN'T ALLOWED DOESN'T LIMIT THE DESIGNER. IT REFLECTS A UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCE. EASIER TO HARDWIRE IT THAN TO WRITE STRANGE RULES TO DEFINE WHEN YOU CAN DO IT.--SVC

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Also, how do the Romulans build a SUB and an NHB on the same turn?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 03:51 pm: Edit

The SUB is a CVA the NHB is considered a medium carrier. Thus you can build one of each on any turn that you are allowed to build the CVA.
Production amounts to the following:

Turn X: 2 Medium Carriers and 1 Escort Carrier
Turn Y: 1 Heavy Carrier, 1 Medium Carrier, and 1 Escort Carrier.

Smaller carriers may be substituted for larger carriers.

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 04:24 pm: Edit

But both the SUB and the NHB are built in the NH slot.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Build one, convert the other.

I do have a question though, for Thomas. There was a long discussion awhile ago about revising the Romulan carrier production system. It's kinda wonky now, being 1 SPB, 1 SKB, 1 SUP, and 1 WH per turn, plus one heavy carrier per year. It does not say 2 medium carriers and 1 escort carrier per turn (and the heavy carrier does not count against the medium carrier production, it's in addition). Anyway, there was a long discussion to revise it, we finally made an agreement on how to modernize and standardize it, and I even remember seeing it printed out... and then it disappeared and the old Order of Battle returned...

... not that I'm complaining, I kinda like the Romulans being wonky...

... but it made me wonder if the "upgraded" Romulan OOB is in an expansion product that I don't have, or do we use the online OOB for all games?


Doesn't matter for the SUB/NHB discussion, even the old OOB allows for a production of a SUB in place of the CNV and a conversion of a NH to a NHB in the same turn.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 07:07 pm: Edit

As it applies to direct builds you would substitute the SUB for the CON and the NHB for the NH during any fall turn once both ships are available per their YIS date.

In truth a CNV would be better than the SUB because of the higher command rating as well as the higher offensive and defensive compot factors.

However, economics may force you to make such a choice between the two.

See (704.22) and (704.23) for guidance on the above.

NOTE: The NHB would replace the SPB in (704.23) as they have the same number of fighter factors. Also a FHB would follow the same path for the same reason.

Ryan is working on the master order of battle for each empire. It may be the data I'm basing my comments off of are outdated as the Master OOB for the Romulans I have is dated 2017.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 10:54 pm: Edit

The Romulan production schedule reflects their unique shipbuilding method and needs to stay as it is.

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Friday, March 22, 2024 - 08:49 am: Edit

Has anyone actually tried the "Romulan Limited War Gambit" suggested in CL22? If so, how did that work out for you? Is it worth it?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, March 22, 2024 - 07:29 pm: Edit

I don't get CL . . . can you describe the gambit?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, March 22, 2024 - 10:35 pm: Edit

Instead of invading the Federation on CT10, the Romulans go to limited war for the next three turns, thereby postponing the onset of exhaustion until turn 19.

I had a game where I was considering using it because the Klingons were in such good shape that they could afford a half-hearted Romulan attack for CT10 - CT12. However, at the end of turn 8 we acknowledged that the Alliance didn't really have a chance and ended the game.

Unless the Klingons are in a really strong position on CT8 and CT9, I can't really see it being effective. Plus, if the Klingon invasion of the Federation is already going that well, it could easily be the case that a hammer-blow from the East ends the game.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, March 23, 2024 - 09:54 am: Edit

Yeah, not buying that it's enough of a benefit to outweigh the relief granted to the Feds.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, March 23, 2024 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Besides the exhaustion factor, there's three additional fleets movable to the border (new construction) plus the Home Fleet …

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, March 23, 2024 - 10:11 pm: Edit

I could have sworn during my game with Paul, it was ruled that home fleet stayed frozen. But anyway, Romulan entry seems to reduce the Fed economy by about 10EP on turn 10, and 15-20EP more on turns 11 and 12. So on turn 12, the Feds are getting 50EP or so more if the Romulans don't invade than if they do. At that point, a turn 13 invasion would be far less effective because the Feds would then have Gorn support. All told, it's far more than the value of delayed exhaustion.

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, May 05, 2024 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Exhaustion would be delayed to Turn 20 because three turns of Limited War works off one turn of war.

I've been crunching the numbers for the Gorn if they go to Limited War on Y173S and it's not pretty. Even if the only thing 2nd Fleet does is move to a Starbase, the Gorns can still get most of their CLs converted to CCH's by Y174F. Factor in Diplomatic Income and they can also upgrade all of their SC's and DDGs and also convert two more SR's. And they may even be able to move Home Fleet forward in Y174S, in which case things could get very sticky for the Romulans.

Looks like it's not such a good idea after all.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, May 05, 2024 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Remember that the Gorn's are on a peacetime economy until Turn #13 and would have only DIP income to work with (but that would be from Turn #2, just like the Feds until Turn #7) …