In Y176, in order to combat an increasing threat, both in quality and quantity of Romulan carriers, the Gorn attempted to counter this move, not with more carriers, but to play to their strength. T wit, they introduced the Mobile Repair base. These units combined the mobile strategic grid capability with the repair capability of an FRD.


The Mobile repair base is a similar unit to the Operation base with the following differences:

• The MRB has no offensive weapons, only defensive ones; I envision factors of 2-10/1-5 (pending SFB SSD creation and review; can we just make a generic statement to that effect somewhere so we don't have to keep writing disclaimers?)
• The MRB has no scout capability
• The MRB is not a supply point

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 02:57 pm: Edit

It's a good idea, and reasonable. My main concern is balance. I haven't played often in the "later years" of the GW, so I don't have much expertise in this area. However, some discussion of balance might be in order (i.e., why give the Gorns a big benefit). Sure, the Roms get nice carriers - but presumably there's already overall game balance given the Roms must fight the Feds.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Maybe a slightly later introduction would be in order.

Operation Remus planning takes place in Y180 and as part of the that the Romulans come up with the idea for Mobile Repair Bases based on part with the deployment of the Federation Logistics Task Force in Y178 and Y179.

For strat move node it should only be for repair ships/tugs otherwise it gets a bit close to the Fed Only LTF.

Retrograde - of course got to get the ships to the repair facility. You can retrogade to a FRD you should be able to retro to this.


Limit of one in service.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 04:32 pm: Edit

"the Romulans come up with the idea for Mobile Repair Bases "

Don't you mean the Gorns?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Yea, I meant the Gorns.

To much NyQuil.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Not sure that it's needed. The Ops Base gives the Gorn a focal point for their Repair ships and Repair Tugs to conduct forward repairs. It is an interesting idea though. Kind or a Gorn answer to the same problem the Fed designed the LTF to cope with.

What would the build cost be?

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Dan,

It also provides extra repair capacity


I'm thinking the cost should be around the same as a OPB; it has some capability the OPB has, but doesn't have the combat power

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 07:24 pm: Edit

I understand that it would have FRD repair capability. I'd make it slightly more expensive than an Ops Base though unless its AF is reduced to 0. It will count as a base location for combat and shouldn't add free compot to the battle force.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 07:33 pm: Edit

I dunno, it doesn't sound like anything the other races couldn't copy. It really just sounds like a base built out of repair modules instead of base modules. Neat idea, but like I said I can't see a reason every race wouldn't want (or try) to build a more durable FRD.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 08:03 pm: Edit

RP:

While others thought to copy the idea the field repair costs was highlighted for those others to see it as limited utility.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 08:53 pm: Edit

I would like to see the repair ships come on map for real. Once this happens I can support something like this not really until then.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Lar:

I can see this as part of the future (ARS.0) ADVANCED AUXILIARY REPAIR SHIPS rule from CL33.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 09:30 pm: Edit

"not really until then."

Lar,

Why not? What is your objection?

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Chuck,

I can understand that the other races would not build such a base in order to use their repair ships more efficiently. But they would build them as they are still as good as an FRD, and the thing can move itself, so it doesn't need a tug either.

Now if it wasn't a Retrograde point, I can see their utility going away for the other races. But I think that would make them equally unattractive for the Gorn also, as an Operational Base would do the job just as well.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what a repair module would do to an Operational Base's repair capacity? That module is listed in the rule as an option for an OPB, but we don't have any rules for those modules yet. But if the repair module(s) add a significant amount of repair to the OPB, then this proposed base would never be built (or needed).

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:29 pm: Edit

I think they're 1 repair point. not enough really.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:51 pm: Edit

At first glance, I'd say that a 12rp unit, that has more defense than an FRD (and they cost about the same), is way too good.

If you look at the SSDs, the OPB is a SC-3 base (IIRC, like the MB w/ pods). The FRD is SC-2 (it's honking huge).

Anyhow, in SFB, an OPB could have 2xRepair Pods+2xRepair Modules (because you can configure it w/ 2 Freighter Aux pods and 2 Modules). So it can be already made with a Standard OpBase pod anyhow (ie keeping the same COMPOT as the plain OpB), nothing new needs to be invented.

So anyhow I think 12rp is way too much, 8 would be more like it (the same as a Repair Tug for comparison), and probably worth it considering the increased defenses compared to an FRD and easier movement (ie no 2xCWs to tow it around).

But otherwise it should be good to go.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:01 pm: Edit

I'm fine with 8 RP

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 08:00 am: Edit

"Why not? What is your objection?"

My apprehension (not really objection) is two parts.

First it is an 'order of things'.
I think the Repair ships should come on to the map ASAP as they are one of the last few things about the original game that were a fudge factor that happen "by magic". FFTs, APTs, and the soon to be published Flex Tugs are taking care of some of the 'by magic' Tug things from the original game. (Yes CEDS is the big one but that should never be discussed here.)

Second, this rule (IMO) will not be useful and does not balance anything if that is what you were going for. Joe knows exactly why too from the game we played with Todd, Mike, Jimi, and Tim. I doubt if even Joe would buy one of these as they would not be cost effective and he doesnt work like that. Here is what I mean:

1) The Gorn Logistics Bonus (It rocks!) does not require many bases at all for their network (planets do just fine) to provide adequate coverage. Gorn space is just not that big.
2) For an 8 RP unit, where the cost is being proposed at equal or slightly more than an OPB I would rather have 2 PRDs and get much more Repair capacity.
3) Their extra tug pods for field repair are way cheaper, more mobile (can get just about anywhere), and provide the Gorn plenty of RP at the front.
4) The Romulan abilty to avoid approach with their cloak make this fragile base very dead and a waste of money.
5) Anyone in a situation that would 'need' one of these for the extra repair is already sunk and would likely stick it in a safe place (thus they would not likely buy it to begin with as other options are cheaper and more effective).
6) Anyone who has 'extra' money for this (after buying their GLB toys) is likely winning the war and could just capture another planet to use in their GLB network (or as Dan said above build another cheaper base to use in their GLB).

The only advantages I see are one of these frees up two tugs: One for the field repair capability it has. And two for the carriage you would need to move a non-mobile base around. Nominal at best especially when this base is limited to only one of these as proposed by Ryan. Adding more doesnt help really either.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 09:34 am: Edit

"FFTs, APTs, and the soon to be published Flex Tugs are taking care of some of the 'by magic' Tug things from the original game"

Except that the "magic" pf pods still exists, even though FFTs were added.


"Second, this rule (IMO) will not be useful and does not balance anything if that is what you were going for. Joe knows exactly why too from the game we played with Todd, Mike, Jimi, and Tim. I doubt if even Joe would buy one of these as they would not be cost effective and he doesnt work like that. Here is what I mean: "

I would not use EB as an example. The geography is quite different.

I would absolutely buy this as the Gorns. Remember that each repair ship can only spend it's points at one location, so even if it only uses 2-3 repair points, the rest go wasted. So, it limits the number of locals the Gorns can use them. In addition, more repair is always a good thing, and being able to have it closer to the action, and not have to retreat to one's bases or planets all the time is handy.

When you get to the Romulan outback, it's essential.

I see this as a mini Gorn LTF; it doesn't have the supply component, because that is more of a Fed thing.


"5) Anyone in a situation that would 'need' one of these for the extra repair is already sunk and would likely stick it in a safe place (thus they would not likely buy it to begin with as other options are cheaper and more effective). "

It's for offensive operations, not so much on the defense.

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:04 am: Edit

Joe,

The combination of Gorn carrier group CEDS with the Gorn Logistics bonus more than provides for deep offensive repair.

Now that the Gorns can use LTT's to save their small size class 3B carriers (HV & variants plus CV) from pursuit. They can have significant carrier fleets for late Y170's offensives to take the damage and keep the fleet ticking.

This OB-Repair seems to be for repairing the larger Gorn cruisers.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:41 am: Edit

"The combination of Gorn carrier group CEDS"

If I'm not mistaken, They need to retrograde to a base or planet in the grid to get the benefit of cheap repairs.

'This OB-Repair seems to be for repairing the larger Gorn cruisers. "

That is something I had in mind, yes.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 01:59 pm: Edit

"I would not use EB as an example. The geography is quite different."

- Yes, different in that the planets are more tightly packed to your capital in all 6 directions. That said there are enough Gorn planets & bases within 6 hexes to get the repariships and repair tugs rolling....its really not that big of a space with full 6 hex movement.

"I would absolutely buy this as the Gorns. Remember that each repair ship can only spend it's points at one location, so even if it only uses 2-3 repair points, the rest go wasted. So, it limits the number of locals the Gorns can use them. In addition, more repair is always a good thing, and being able to have it closer to the action, and not have to retreat to one's bases or planets all the time is handy."

- I really doubt it when it would come down to actually spending the points.
- If you dont send your crips back to the retrograde point you would be wasting RP capacity that is true. But tell me how this is different than not sending your crips back to this base?
- And yes the repair ships need to be at a retrograde point which would be a base (most with repair capabilites) or a planet. In the case of the planet you still get more bang for your buck with a PRD at 3 or 5 EP to build.

"When you get to the Romulan outback, it's essential."

- Again this can be accomplished for less building on to your GLB network to get there.

"I see this as a mini Gorn LTF; it doesn't have the supply component, because that is more of a Fed thing."

- I kind of knew this would come up. Stack one of these things with a reg OPB, MilCon or two and away you go. The biggest difference is, it is a cake walk to kill...especially for the Rommies.

By William E. Wood (Wxmanwill) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:54 pm: Edit

I agree with Lar. The MRB has no advantage for the Gorns and can be killed at will by the sneaky Roms.

The discerning Gorn, when playing in the Romulan outback, uses repair ships since the Rom can't kill them. The Gorn have trouble enough defending their vulnerable string of mobile bases from Roms since pin counts rarely favor them. The MRB is just another target. The Repair ships are nicely abstracted and thus unkillable.

By William E. Wood (Wxmanwill) on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:00 am: Edit

I agree with Lar. The MRB has no advantage for the Gorns and can be killed at will by the sneaky Roms.

The discerning Gorn, when playing in the Romulan outback, uses repair ships since the Rom can't kill them. The Gorn have trouble enough defending their vulnerable string of mobile bases from Roms since pin counts rarely favor them. The MRB is just another target. The Repair ships are nicely abstracted and thus unkillable.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:18 am: Edit

"The discerning Gorn, when playing in the Romulan outback, uses repair ships"

And how do they accomplish this? What SMNs do they have? This isn't on the defense, rather on the offense.


"The Repair ships are nicely abstracted and thus unkillable. "

And still are; the repair ships can use the MRB as a SMN