Previously under (439.16) Ships destroyed in single combat (310.0) or (504.4) counted as salvage for the winning ship if it otherwise qualified, and currently under (323.0) which supersedes (310.0) and (318.7) both sides receives salvage because in effect (310.0) and (318.7) are effectively non-existent.
Specifically this appears to create contradictory rules. To eliminate this I propose the following the following change to (439.16).
(429.16) If all units including ships are destroyed in a battle hex, including those destroyed in (323.0) ESSC, then ONLY the victor receives salvage for all ships otherwise qualifying for salvage. Depot Level Repair (424.0) only applies to those units of the victor that would otherwise qualify.
Also (439.22) is obsolete as (439.11) states that the salvage value of each ship is taken from the SITs
(439.22) This rule is effectively replaced by (439.11) as the Salvage value of each ship is in the SITs.

By Bill Stec (Billstec2) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 08:20 am: Edit

I would love to see it a rule that the victor of a battle-hex gets ALL the salvage, but I doubt that it would be allowed.

Or allow it, but say that in order to get salvage as the loser, he has to risk a ship (sneaking in to snatch the hulk) to get it - roll a die: 1-2 he gets the salvage, 3-4 no salvage but no damage to the risked ship, 5-6 the risked ship is crippled.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 09:11 am: Edit

Modification to proposed (439.16).

Currently the proposed rule reads (429.16) If all units including ships should read (439.16) If ALL units including ships

Unfortunately I made I mistake the in the rule number as I typed it up and didn't catch it until after I posted it. Also the word All should have been capitalized and in bold to reflect emphasis.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 11:33 am: Edit

"I would love to see it a rule that the victor of a battle-hex gets ALL the salvage"

If you mean for the last battle round, then I say yes, but if you mean for the whole battle, that would be way out of bounds, given the scale of a battle hex and the time frame of a turn.

Technically speaking, salvage is generated on a round-by-round basis.


"Currently the proposed rule reads (429.16) If all units including ships should read (439.16) If ALL units including ships "

All ships are units, so saying "uncluding ships" is redundant.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 12:25 pm: Edit

I would say that the only time you could get salvage from the enemy in a battle is during pursuit. That's the one time you're most likely to capture hulls that are so damaged they count as destroyed (salvage). Earlier in a battle salvageable ships are dropping out of combat and escaping by sublight evasion as the battle continues.

This of course does not include the special Tholian combat in a web salvage rules.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Joe, the intent is so that if the battle resolves around a base that then a player a cannot dispute the salvage by trying to "hide" behind the base even though the base was destroyed.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Personally I think it makes the most sense if the victor of the battle hex gets the salvage ONLY if all opposing units were destroyed. That would cover single combat and pretty much any other combat situation where this might come into play.

But, what about withdraw before combat? How would that affect this proposal? Ships that withdraw are leaving the hex, but if those ships happened to be crippled, they can still be pursued, so they must still be in the hex to some degree.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 01:45 pm: Edit

<HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT><P>But, what about withdraw before combat? How would that affect this proposal? Ships that withdraw are leaving the hex, but if those ships happened to be crippled, they can still be pursued, so they must still be in the hex to some degree.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0>

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 02:06 pm: Edit

"Joe, the intent is so that if the battle resolves around a base that then a player a cannot dispute the salvage by trying to "hide" behind the base even though the base was destroyed. "

If the base is destroyed, how can you "hide" behind it?


"Personally I think it makes the most sense if the victor of the battle hex gets the salvage ONLY if all opposing units were destroyed. That "

Agreed


"Shipes that withdraw could also be presumed to have not entered the hex for various reasons to include updated inteligence reports where a captain or admiral has ordered those ships to not enter the combat zone. "

Ships that withdraw are considered part of the pursued for if the rest of the force retreats, so the existing dynamics don't support that suggestion.

By jason murdoch (Jmurdoch) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 03:41 pm: Edit

While we are looking at salvage. Can anyone answer why bases dont generate salvage? While the SBs phaser IV wont fit into that new frigate on the slipways some of the phaser capacitors might

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Two thoughts come to mind as to why there is no salvage for bases:

1. The base is stuck in place. Even if it is reduced to a gutted wreck rather than being truly destroyed, you can't get the wreck back to a shipyard to be salvaged.

2. I suspect that a destroyed base is much more likely to be truly destroyed. Ship salvage represents wrecks that drop engines and evade by sublight, separated booms & saucers, etc that were able to avoid the "last point of damage". A base can't evade / separate sections / whatever, so true destruction is much more likely.

Cheers,
Jason

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 07:33 am: Edit

I'll bet bases do not generate salvage because a BATS would be worth 4.75 EPs and a SB would be worth 12.25 EPs.

The Kzinti, for example, once the Coalition has destroyed all of their bases outside of the capital, would have made 79.5 EPs from that salvage. And if PDUs left salvage, it would be even higher. That kind of money could be pretty game breaking in the first few turns, as it would allow a race like the Kzinti to stand over their fixed denfeses far longer than they can right now, inflicting far greater damage that they can repair since they'll have a boat-load of funds coming in from "loosing" the battle.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 08:26 am: Edit

Please leave any base discussion out of this conversation. The proposal only regards units that currently produce salvage. This is a minor change proposal to an existing rule and not a major change or completely new rule. Thank you.

Joe, could you please explain in some more detail the last statement. I'm not sure if your talking about opposed or unopposed withdrawl before combat or both opposed and unopposed combat before withdrawl. Thank you.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 09:10 am: Edit

"combat before withdrawl"

that's called "retreat"


I'm talking about ALL of them.


If you attack me, and I withdraw some ships, then we fight, if I retreat, the ships that withdrew earlier are STILL in the hex (although they don't fight in any combat rounds) for purposes of pursuit battles; the entire force retreats together. I don't see how you can say ships alreaedy in the hex could be considered to have not "entered" a hex they most likely started the turn in (note that the phasing player cannot withdraw before combat, so we are talking about the defending player in all cases here).

Said ships are in the hex and provide a conduit for salvage teams to do their job.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 09:23 am: Edit

I'm glad you understood that I was asking about both opposed and unoppoosed withdrawl before combat. You make an excellent point. However, any cripples would then later be included in the pursuit battle.

Perhaps the scale of this should only apply to ESSC (323.0)? Otherwise the only other times I could see this applying would be for a force to withdraw into the off map area. And as the off map while adjacent to map hexes, is not considered a hex for other purposes, i.e. reserve fleets.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 10:48 am: Edit

I don't think the offmap matters any differently for this purpose; the withdrawn ships don't leave the hex until all ships retreat.

By Peter Hill (Corwin) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 11:09 am: Edit

the withdrawn ships don't leave the hex until all ships retreat.

Is that a ruling somewhere? The F&E2K book seems to contradict this.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 12:24 pm: Edit

"The F&E2K book seems to contradict this. "

Not if you understand what I'm saying.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 01:27 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I'm glad you understood that I was asking about both opposed and unoppoosed withdrawl before combat. You make an excellent point. However, any cripples would then later be included in the pursuit battle.

---

By Peter Hill (Corwin) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Joe:
the withdrawn ships don't leave the hex until all ships retreat.

Peter:
The F&E2K book seems to contradict this.

Joe:
Not if you understand what I'm saying.

Apparently I don't.

(302.16) If some of the defending ships withdrew before combat, these ships are no longer in the battle hex...

(302.15) If some or all defending units remain in the hex...

(302.134) ...must be placed on the map in the retreat hex ... remainder of the force later retreats, it must go to the same hex...

All these imply that withdrawn units are immediately placed in a different hex.

It looked like you were implying differently but I may have misunderstood. What am I missing?

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Peter,

You are correct... and Joe is correct.

Every one of the quotes you cited certainly does imply that the ships that withdraw before combat are in fact not in the hex during combat. In fact, I would use those quotes as confirmation that such ships have in fact left the hex and are not part of the combat.

And yet, there was a ruling that says the exact opposite, confirming exactly what Joe is saying. If crippled ships withdraw from combat, they are still targetable in a pursuit battle (assuming the enemy opposed the withdrawal).

I don't agree with it, but that has been the ruling.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 03:28 pm: Edit

"All these imply that withdrawn units are immediately placed in a different hex. "

No, because all units retreat together. There is one and only retreat maximum by each side in a given battle, with the exceptions of
1) partial retreat from a capital
2) separate retreat by allies, which happen at the same time, but are allowed to retreat to different hexes.


"Every one of the quotes you cited certainly does imply that the ships that withdraw before combat are in fact not in the hex during combat. In fact, I would use those quotes as confirmation that such ships have in fact left the hex and are not part of the combat.
"

Kevin,

Not part of combat, correct. But all units retreat together, except for a partial retreat from a capital hex, which is the one and only exception. So the units are out of combat (until retreat), but still in the hex.

When pursuit is taken, ALL units, both those that withdrew and those that remained to fight, are eligible for the retreat force, and may be compelled to be in the force (if they are crippled)

By Peter Hill (Corwin) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Joe, can you cite a rule or ruling for that?

Rule (302.134) specifically states that the withdrawn units are "placed on the map in the retreat hex" and then says "...remainder of the force later retreats, it must go to the same hex".

That seems pretty explicit.

You said "all units retreat together" but the non-withdrawing units remaining to fight are not even required to retreat. They can remain in the hex.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 08:20 am: Edit

If opposed withdrawal (302.13) results in crippled units, then they are still in the battle hex and must be included for Pursuit (307.0).

There's not a very clear cut defined rule there. However, the Pursuit rule is pretty clear that any and all cripples in the pursued forces may be directed upon by the pursuer.

The above assumes somes that those units that withdraw from combat are on the same side as units retreating from the battle hex at the conclussion of combat within the "original" battle hex.

Joe and I appear to be interpetating the opposed withdrawal in the same way. We appear to have a different interepation of the unopposed withdrawal rule.

By Peter Hill (Corwin) on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 10:51 pm: Edit

I disagree with that interpretation.

My understanding from the rules is that a pursuit battle for an opposed withdrawal takes place immediately. If the defender should later choose to retreat the remainer of their units from the battle hex then they are also subject to a pursuit.

(307.1) says: It can be done after any enemy retreat (including opposed Withdrawal Before Combat) which involves at least one crippled retreating unit.

So whenever a retreat occurs, a pursuit can too.