Single Sided Counter suggestion.

If CW is done before Andro War then add the following for each empire.

Tactical Reserve Counters for everyone but ISC, unless they don't get their's in ISC War

FRD with 1 fighter module and 1 PF module for 3 Fighter Factors and PF Flotilla

FRX with 2 fighter modules for 6 fighter factors

FRX with 1 fighter module and 1 PF module for 3 Fighter Factors and PF Flotilla

While some fo the above may not be needed for historical play, it could be used to enhance overall F&E gaming

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 08:27 pm: Edit

By Dal Downing Rambler (3deez) on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 11:49 pm: Edit

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 06:35 am: Edit

By John F. Reaves III (Halden) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 09:41 am: Edit

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 10:13 am: Edit

Right now the budget is one sheet, with two or three copies. Design wise, two sheets is much easier. Budget wise, it's much harder.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 01:08 pm: Edit

With my limited understanding of how counters are produced, are there four sheets of 280 on a master sheet? If so, then would this work as the master sheet layout:

CW Sheet One - 280 Counters - One-Offs*	CW Sheet Two - 280 Counters - General Availability
CW Sheet Two - 280 Counters - General Availability	CW Sheet Two - 280 Counters - General Availability

*A Player would only ever need one of these sheets.

Civil War will have many minor empires with many one-off (or two- or three-off) counter requirements, so if they are concentrated on one sheet, leaving the other three sheets for general units, would that work?

That way, when a players buys seven CivilWars sheets he's not stuck with 6 Hive Ships, 6 LDR BCHs, 6 WYN "Nancy" Aux DNs, and 6 Vudar DNs (just to name a few)...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 02:53 pm: Edit

See my previous post about one vs two sheets, but we dont' have to worry about this now. If ISCWAR sells well, getting Leanna to write the checks for tactical ops, defensive ops, civil wars, and Andro war would be much more plausible.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 04:46 pm: Edit

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Quote:

One thing I have learned is that it's going to be monstrously tough to include a full range of counters for a Klingon civil war, or Romulan or Lyran. There are just too many KINDS of ships. I'd hate to tell one of the two Klingon players that he cannot build E4s, only F5s, because the countermix needed his E4 counter for a D5S.

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 04:50 pm: Edit

...given a choice - and I'm sure much depends on how well ISC War does - I'd actually prefer to have the Carnivons and Paravians pulled out of this one, too. The Carnivons and Paravians could, instead, fit with EY-era Federation races (Andorians, Vulcans, etc) in an 'Early Wars'-type of project...rather than trying to squeeze them into 'Civil Wars'.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Or, do Civil Wars in two parts: The civil wars that did happen (Vudar, Seltorians, Romulans, Kzinti, and Lyran; though the Seltorians are a bit of a stretch) and the civil wars that did not happen (Federation, Klingon, Carnivons, Paravians, ISC).

By Trab Kadar (Trab) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Usurper & War of Return units can have the same colors.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Well, given that the primary focus of Civil Wars seems (in my understanding) to be all of the late/post-GW small conflicts, I would think these are the 'essentials':

Pink Romulans
Orange Kzinti (+WYN fish ships; either in Usurper or WYN colors, dunno)
Vudar
Seltorians
WYN (for the late war Coalition attempts on them)

My hazy recollection is that the Usurper didn't use any of the regular WYN ships, just the later 'fish ships'. Given that the WYN hardly ever operate outside of their nebula, I kind of wonder if they're worth doing bunches of counters for.

For minor powers, that leaves just the LDR, which I don't think got involved in anything outside of the Andromedan Invasion. Though if room can be found, this is the place to do them.

I don't *think* the Lyrans had any noticeable civil wars outside of the one indulged in at the beginning of the 4PW. So they could be trimmed as 'outside the scope of the module'. If put in, and I'm correct, they could be kept down to the catamarans at least.

Finally, I'll note that the LDR, Usurper and Seltorians all have a white background and could easily 'share blocks' if they had to.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 06:45 pm: Edit

I'd agree to some extent with Mike; I wouldn't rush to include counters for the likes of the Feds, Klingons, or ISC. The Vudar are good enough as a Klingon "domestic disturbance"; the Federation and Concordium would be more interesting in this context if/when a chance to look at their older planetary fleets in an Early Years module pops up further down the line.

I'm on the fence regarding the SSJ2-Paravians and Carnivons; might they be best left for some later product (maybe to be put alongside the Peladine and other Alpha also-rans)?


The Seltorians are the ones I'd be most interested in seeing, but more for what direction they may allow things to be taken. While the Tribunal force seen in Alpha would be a factor, it would be a great opportunity to facilitate Revolt-era campaigns in the home galaxy (and beyond).

Both Hive and Nest ships would have important roles to play for the Seltorian fleets operating in M81; the Battlewagon would allow for players to launch the most critical strikes against the largest Tholian installations.

Speaking of the Will, a counter to represent a Dyson Sphere would be useful; even leaving the one which became "our" Tholia aside, there was the one (I forget the name) mentioned in the background article introducing the Draco-Tholians. If they aren't in print elsewhere, the NDD and NFF would be useful; as might some of the "collared" Neos, if one wanted to explore the possibility that the historical collar/s really were brought to the Milky Way.

Indeed, if more information is published about them between now and the onset of this module, it would be neat to see room made for a few Nebuline ships; both their winged raider hulls (non-export versions of the OGR and OGD) and the winged naval ships they are noted as using. Scenarios involving a Tholian (and/or Seltorian) effort to clear out a given occupied nebula could make for a useful pre-Revolt exercise; plus, the regular naval ships could allow for a glimpse at the kind of battles fought during the Great Martial War.

Plus, the surviving Nebuline colonies (and High Pirate Bands) could serve as wild cards in a Revolt-era scenario, with the right scale of operations taken into consideration...


In short, the Seltorians offer a chance to make Civil Wars serve as a strategic equivalent of Module C3 or Tholian Attack; with a main focus set in our galaxy, but with a window open to another.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 07:10 pm: Edit

I want to do one product, not two or three, and to include everything.

Collared Neos, maybe, but I was thinking TacOps for those.

The counters for Paravians and Carnivons are for General War, not early years.

The "primary focus" of this thing is from Y140-Y190, not late general war. You missed it, by a bunch.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 09:04 am: Edit

Well, one that that will definitely save room is to combine the alternative Lyrans with the LDR. Since the LDR has the same ship factors as the Lyrans, there is no problem. Just make a "superset" of the ships, and say which uses which counters. (This, of course, assumes you have no intention to have a scenario where the LDR *and* another area are both in rebellion ...)

By Symon Cook (Symon) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:36 am: Edit

Like those counters!
If you only want one product, it could be a push to get all Civil War factions in.
One thing does occur to me. As most of the ships stay off map on fleet charts, you could get away with using the 'normal' ships for both sides. All we'd need would be single sided fleet markers and 'Rebel' (or other faction name) counters to mark units that needed placing on the map. Not as visually impressive as two fleets in different colours, but it would help lots.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 01:03 pm: Edit

First off let me state that whatever ADB chooses I will support the decision.

However, Russell Manning's idea of separate Civil Wars product is very intriguing. I know I would much prefer to have a complete set of counters for the Seltorians or LDR or any other minor power over having a partial mix of counters that is missing some desired or colorful units.

Musings Only – 280 like-colored counters each:
F&E Civil Wars: Lyran Democratic Republic –Independence!
F&E Civil Wars: Kzinti Usurper - War of Return
F&E Civil Wars: Lyran - Duchy’s Honor
Option: Tie the three above together with a theme such as “Feline Conflict” with a sheet of one-offs/bases; makes for four sheets on a master sheet

F&E Civil Wars: Seltorian Retribution
F&E Civil Wars: Vudar - Autonomy Quest
F&E Civil Wars: WYN Freedom – A Good Day to Die
Option: Tie the above together with a theme such as “Borders of Battle” with a sheet of one-offs/bases; makes for four sheets on a master sheet

F&E Civil Wars: Romulan Uprising – Fight for the Empire
F&E Civil Wars: Klingon – Mutiny!
F&E Civil Wars: Fall of the Federation
Option: Tie the above together with a theme such as “Challenge of the Giants” with a sheet of one-offs/bases; makes for four sheets on a master sheet

Please know that I do not have any expectations that this is the right path for ADB – they run a business and the constraints of business may not even make the above possible.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Those ideas are very nice, would probably make for 'easier' products to create as well. I like, muchly.

By Michael Tisdel (Jtisdel) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I think Civil Wars would be an excellent venue for smaller (single sector) scenarios. As such it might lend itself to fewer counters with blue-counter reuse for standard or aux ships.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Reminder that this is the Civil Wars topic so please move other discussions to their assigned topic.

Thanks.

By Russell J. Manning (Rjmanning) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Well, I like the fact my idea has caught the eye of Chuck Strong. While I like the idea of a series of games within F&E, when I was posting the comment I was envisioning it as an independant gaming system.

Something that answered the desire for a game that is strategic but not as rules heavy as F&E.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 07:29 pm: Edit

I don't think it's a good idea to split this into different products. it could certainly have five copies of one countersheet easily enough, and (depending on sales of other products) it could have an alpha-bravo system (one alpha, three or four bravos). Multiple products would have the same number of counters. Having civil war counters for the Feds and Klingons amounts to doing the wish/dream sheet for them, and gives you the ability to keep track of east/west deployments more easily.

By Peter A. Kellerhall (Pak) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Steve, What is the "Alpha-Bravo System"?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Peter, the Alpha-Bravo system is 2 different double sided counter sheets for a given product. In the most recognize case this is F&E 2010. Sheet Alpha has a number of counters on it that are only used a limited number of times in most games and generally includes stuff you won't build more of or can't build more of. Sheet Bravo has counters that almost every player wants more of. Hence the cardboard addict jokes.

BTW, the best known example I see on the Alpah-Bravo reprints are the KC9R where you only get one, but if you can ever get the Klingons to give you more DN's you can have more.

My name is Turtle and I'm addicted to cardboard and e-cardboard. I can quit any time I want, but why?