SWF: I cannot see the WYNs holding two types of small aux carriers. The only generic aux carrier they deployed was the AuxCVA (the F&E generic LAV) the other three small carriers were WYNized with option mounts.

My earlier research also shows that the WYNs seemed to struggle with formal carrier production and resorted to casual fighter deployments in some cases. Maybe they had technology challenges with formal carriers and went more option mounts or could not count on having enough fighter imports to keep the bays filled -- who knows.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 04:02 pm: Edit

With all of your likely fights taking place in a single hex, why would you need carriers?

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Because it's not that simple outside of F&E?

Because you can only put so many PDUs on a planet?

Because you want a higher unit density than 6? (Not that a SAV is going to do that... but maybe the AVS will.)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 04:23 pm: Edit

They would need carriers because we haven't really defined the 'weather' in the Cluster.

While it has a 'shell' of the WYN Radiation Zone, that's essentially a beefed up nebula which doesn't allow fighter-flight BTW, their could be lots of smaller nebuli/ion storms inside messing up transit inside the cluster

By David Watters (Dwatters) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Question on the SIT.

Why do the DN, BCH, CA, and CF get half a fighter factor on the crippled side. Each has 2 SFB fighters which is 1 F&E fighter factor. Their HDW (along with all other HDWs) have the same 2 SFB fighters which is 1 F&E fighter factor but have no half fighter factor on the crippled side.

David Watters

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar1) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Chuck, even if the WYN, historically, never built two different aux carriers, a player shuold retain that option, especially if the WYN version is different than the generic version (in combat factors), so there would be a need for two designations. If the WYN AVS has the same factors as the SAV then it, then one designation works...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 01:51 am: Edit

Stewart:

The problem with that is that if you allow this you end up with two types of:

small aux carriers
small aux commando ships
small aux scouts
small aux PFTs
small aux Heavy Ftr Carriers
small aux cruisers

large aux Space controls ships
large aux commando ships
large aux scouts
large aux PFTs
large aux Heavy Ftr Carriers
large aux cruisers

With such as small fleet it's a real logistical pain to train two different tactics, techniques and maintenance procedures. To cite a term, it could be said that the WYN "doctrine" was to produce only one type of like-sized aux ships.

From a player's point-of-view, do we want to print (and even waste space) all these extra counters that may never really be used?

By Peter A. Kellerhall (Pak) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 05:14 pm: Edit

The WYNs are also totally reliant on imported fighters as they don't have any fightes of their own. While they might have stockpiled fighters it appears that they don't have any WYN designed fighter capability of their own. For that reason, maybe they didn't want many formal carriers (with the chance they couldn't restock their carriers) and wanted more combat hybrids?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar1) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Hmmm, Chuck, the WYN version is what would be printed and the WYN player could use 'extra' eastern (or Tholian) aux for the 'generic' version (unless there's room for generic aux somewhere, unlikely but...)

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 07:57 am: Edit

Chuck wrote:

---

Quote:

(WC.331) This force may contain admiral, command points, a battle group, etc. It may NOT consist of recovering independent carriers or PF units or casual PFs. Recovering drone bombardment units may not be used until they recover, and then only for one round as they cannot be supplied through the barrier.

---

By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 01:37 am: Edit

I stumbled on this gem of posts looking for answers on Wyn Trade for Cloudburst Scenario. I have a few comments on Chuck's proposal.

Basically I also see ships that have entered the wyn to be out of supply and due to the radiation have to expend their beginning turn supply on recovery. This means their combat values at most would be halved after recovery, unless they bring their own supply (which I'm sure the wyn would be happy to capture). You could go further and even say that the supply must be paid upfront before entering because you are accounting for crew casualties by taking extra supplies and crew. Could the expeditionary fleet rule be used or tweaked for use in the wyn cluster?

Why not halve command rating of recovering ships?

By Peter A. Kellerhall (Pak) on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 04:06 am: Edit

Chris,
See SOP; if you an in supply at the beginning of movement then you are in supply for the purposes of combat.

By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Pete, I'm talking here a specific exception to the general rules on supply (good point though). Basically I am saying is a ship going through the Wyn barrier causes a ship to require immediate maintenance which means for all intensive purposes it has used up its supplies/spare parts/and its systems are being brought back online. It could bring along more maintenance and spare parts via ships that Carry cargo.

This is why I brought up the Expeditionary Fleet rule which requires EP for supplies. Or, maybe the Romulan KR rules on spare parts could be used? You would use up the EP/spare parts after transiting the barrier, say after round 1 of combat while undergoing emergency maintenance.

I like the idea of only 1 battle force being sent through at a time for each combat round.

My take on standard variations of auxs is to not allow. Wyns modify their ships heavily because they have so few.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 04:23 am: Edit

Memo For Record:

Reference material for the WYN:

A. CL37 Pages 19-23
B. SFB Module C3 mini campaign (T8.0).

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 04:56 pm: Edit

OK; let's start with the simple part: The Y116 Kzinti civil war that led to the flight of the Usurper to the WYN cluster. I've divided the forces into 3 empires for reporting purposes: "Usurper", "Patriarch", and "Feudal". The last represents forces of various petty nobles that were bribed or intimidated by either side to get them to join up in the war. Before the detailed lists, here is a brief summary of the forces for each group, as pulled from scenarios SH249 - SH257, inclusive:

USURPER:
1xYDN, 1xYCC, 2xYCS, 2xYCL, 1xYDF, 1xWTG, 9xYFF
PATRIARCH:
1xYDN, 1xYCC, 2xYCS, 2xYCL, 1xWTG, 9xYFF
SHIPS KNOWN TO HAVE DEFECTED: (not included in above totals)
1xYCL from the Usurper to the Patriarch
1xYFF from the Patriarch to the Usurper
FEUDAL LORDS THAT JOINED THE USURPER:
3xWCA, 3xWDD, 1xYFF
FEUDAL LORDS THAT JOINED THE PATRIARCH
1xWCA, 1xWDD
FEUDAL LORDS WHOSE ALLEGIANCE IS NOT REPORTED
1xYCS, 2xYCL, 3xYFF, 1xWDD

-Jason E. Schaff - 12/31/2011

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 04:58 pm: Edit

OK, Forces for the Usurper:

Usurper; SH249; Y116; YCS; (Eclipse – survived)

Usurper; SH249; Y116; YFF; (#25)

Usurper; SH250; Y116; YCC; (Zenith - survived)

Usurper; SH250; Y116; YCL; (Knifeslinger - survived)

Usurper; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#10)

Usurper; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#17 - survived)

Usurper; SH251; Y116; YCC; (Zenith - survived)

Usurper; SH251; Y116; YCL; (Shadowchaser - survived)

Usurper; SH251; Y116; YFF; (#10)

Usurper; SH251; Y116; YFF; (#19 - survived)

Usurper; SH251; Y116; YDF; (#30)

Usurper; SH252; Y116; YCL; (Shadowchaser - survived)

Usurper; SH252; Y116; WCA; (Pride of Snarl)

Usurper; SH252; Y116; WCA; (Ripping Slayer)

Usurper; SH252; Y116; WDD; (Stabber)

Usurper; SH252; Y116; WDD; (Solemn Vow)

Usurper; SH253; Y116; WTG; (#3 - survived)

Usurper; SH253; Y116; YFF; (#10)

Usurper; SH253; Y116; YFF; (#16)

Usurper; SH253; Y116; YFF; (#27 - survived)

Usurper; SH253; Y116; YCL; (Mystery – destroyed after defecting to the Patriarch)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; WTG; (#3 – destroyed)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YCS; (Eclipse - survived)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YCC; (Zenith - survived)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#8)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#10)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#17 - survived)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#19 - survived)

Usurper; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#32 - survived)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YDN; (Tribal – destroyed or captured)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YCC; (Zenith – destroyed or captured)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YCS; (Eclipse – survived)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YCS; (Parsec – destroyed or captured)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YCL; (Knifeslinger – destroyed or captured)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YCL; (Shadowchaser – survived)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#17 – survived)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#19)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#27)

Usurper; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#32 – survived)

Usurper; SH257; Y116; YCS; (Eclipse – escaped into the WYN cluster, scrapped to make other surviving ships operational)

Usurper; SH257; Y116; YCL; (Shadowchaser – escaped into the WYN cluster, scrapped to make other surviving ships operational)

Usurper; SH257; Y116; YFF (#17 – escaped into the WYN cluster, one of the founding ships of the WYN navy)

Usurper; SH257; Y116; (#32 – escaped into the WYN cluster, one of the founding ships of the WYN navy)

-Jason E. Schaff - 12/31/2011

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 04:59 pm: Edit

And for the Patriarch:

Patriarch; SH249; Y116: YCS; (Comet - survived)

Patriarch; SH250; Y116; YCC; (Cosmos - survived)

Patriarch; SH250; Y116; YCL; (Magician - survived)

Patriarch; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#8 - survived)

Patriarch; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#14 - survived)

Patriarch; SH251; Y116; YCS; (Comet – survived)

Patriarch; SH251; Y116; YCL; (Warlock – survived)

Patriarch; SH251; Y116; YFF; (#8 – survived)

Patriarch; SH251; Y116; YFF; (#24 – survived)

Patriarch; SH251; Y116; WCA; (Honor’s Guardian – destroyed)

Patriarch; SH251; Y116; WDD; (Shield Bearer – destroyed)

Patriarch; SH254; Y116; WTG; (#4 – survived)

Patriarch; SH254; Y116; YFF; (#26 – destroyed)

Patriarch; SH255; Y116; YCS; (Comet)

Patriarch; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#14 - survived)

Patriarch; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#24 - survived)

Patriarch; SH255; Y116; YFF; (#28)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YDN; (Hegemony)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YCC; (Cosmos - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YCS; (Comet - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YCS; (Quasar - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YCL; (Magician - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YCL; (Warlock - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#11 - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#14)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#33 - survived)

Patriarch; SH256; Y116; YFF; (#34 - survived)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YCS; (Comet)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YFF; (#24)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YFF; (#33)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YCL; (Magician)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YFF; (#35)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YCC; (Cosmos)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YCS; (Quasar)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YCL; (Warlock)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YFF; (#11)

Patriarch; SH257; Y116; YFF; (#34)

-Jason E. Schaff - 12/31/2011

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 05:00 pm: Edit

And lastly, the Feudal Lords. This listing includes only those ships that begin scenarios unaligned.

Feudal; SH254; Y116; WCA; (Pelt Taker – destroyed, briefly co-belligerent with Usurper)

Feudal; SH254; Y116; WDD; (Loyal Squire – survived, briefly co-beligerent with Usurper)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; WCA; (Pride of Snarl – joined Usurper)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; WDD; (Stabber – joined Usurper)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; WDD; (Fangs – probably joined Usurper)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YCS; (Starfire)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#13)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YCL; (Gunslinger)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YCL; (Phantom)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#6)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#21)

Feudal; SH250; Y116; YFF; (#25 – joined Usurper)

-Jason E. Schaff - 12/31/2011

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 05:21 pm: Edit

I assume that you plan to do an early years scenario using GW-era counters as analogues. We're NOT going to do early years counters, not in civil wars, anyway.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 06:02 pm: Edit

***IF*** we create any scenarios from the early war era we would use GW-era analogues. However, I wasn't planing to write any scenarios from the early era at this point as I wanted to save such endeavors for CL projects or later F&E products. I just don't have the time to research and/or fact check material from the early era. I plan to only focus on the WYN and War of Return subjects as they relate to the General War & ISC War eras unless ADB directs otherwise.

Right now we're just collecting data to help build historically accurate GW/ISC War era OOBs for this Civil Wars product. Rationale: If the research show as much as a single WYN frigate from Y161 survived until Y201 then it needs to be accounted for on a notionally historical OOB for Y185.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 06:54 pm: Edit

In keeping with the LDR question in the other topic, would there be scope for a Four Powers War-era OOB for the WYN Navy (and/or the Orion Cluster Cartel), in order to allow for players to attempt invasions of the WYN Cluster using the neighbouring fleets from the historical 4PW scenario?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 07:59 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

...I wasn't planning to write any scenarios from the early era at this point as I wanted to save such endeavors for CL projects or later F&E products. I just don't have the time to research and/or fact check material from the early era. I plan to only focus on the WYN and War of Return subjects as they relate to the General War & ISC War eras unless ADB directs otherwise...


...Right now we're just collecting data to help build historically accurate GW/ISC War era OOBs for this Civil Wars product...

---

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 10:49 am: Edit

NOTES FROM SFB MASTER SHIP CHART (MODULE G3)

SHIPS THAT CANNOT BE PRESENT IN THE WYN OOB
(Status of IMP, CNJ, or UNV)

Foreign ships:
PBK, PBZ

Auxiliaries:
None

Fish Ships:
DN, DNH, DNL. DSC, CF
CWE, CCW, CWF, CDD

UNIQUE SHIPS WITH YEAR COMMISSIONED
(Status of UNQ, LPU, or RPU)

Orion ships:
OFB (Y160), OFC (Y160)

Foreign ships:
PBB (Y181), PBC (Y186), WJL (Y170 - per R12.43 may be conjectual)

Auxiliaries:
AxDN (Y175), AxBCS (Y183)

Fish Ships:
CWPX (Y190), NAR (Y185), HDWX (Y189), FCR (Y184)

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Captain's Log #37 has a history of the WYN navy and a number of unique ships (status of captured/purchased).

(R12.A2) Orion OFB YIS given as Y181 in Captain's Log #37 MSC on page 98.

(R12.A4) FPL (Y165)
(R12.A5) IDX (Y188)
(R12.A6) SFF (Y187)
(R12.A7) SDD (Y187)
(R12.A8) GFF (Y176)
(R12.A9) RFF (Y176)

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 03:03 pm: Edit

OFB was a typo on my part, and I missed one never built hull type: There are several other ship types that are listed as one-offs in their R section descriptions, but are not listed as such in the G3 MSC: Such will be noted when I post the R-section data compilations. Right now I'm working on finishing compilation of scenario data (All S and T done, and about 60% of the way through Captain's Log)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SHIPS THAT CANNOT BE PRESENT IN THE WYN OOB
BCH

UNIQUE WYN SHIPS WITH YEAR COMMISSIONED
OFB (Y181) (correction from prior post

- Jason E. Schaff - 01/01/2012