The difference I see is that if the Tholians are not at war until alliance 22, then they cannot use their reserve to do anything if the coalition continues to leave them alone. So no reinforcing any feds within range on C22, etc.

Whereas if they are fully active on C22, then they could reserve out to a battle in range even if the coalition is ignoring the Tholians. They could also react to any op moves to the nearby klingon/romulan bases and then reserve onto that battle.

I didn't get that there was anything else to the question - just could the Tholians actively react and reserve on C22.

I'd expect they have to wait until the alliance half of 22 as basically all the other entering powers do, but I am interested in the actual result.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 04:38 pm: Edit

I'd assume the same would then apply to the Gorns on the Coalition half of Turn 12. I assume their reserves could help out any Feds within range if that is the case. I'd better go re-read the rules to see if anything specific is said about this or not.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 05:48 pm: Edit

The rule Kosta seeks is (603.14); the Gorns cannot react or reserve units during the Coalition phase of turn #12.

The other driving rule is (604.151) where is says: "If the Tholians are NOT attacked by turn #22, the Tholians become 'limit partners' with the Alliance." This statement seems really clear; an attack by the Coalition on the Tholians on or before the Coalition phase of turn 22 is the only way the Tholians can join the General War prior to the Tholian phase of turn #22.

FEDS RULING

The Tholians cannot enter the General War prior to their phase of turn #22 or are attacked earlier; see additional provisions under (503.3).

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Chuck,

I in spirit agree with your ruling - the Tholians really should join on their phase and not on the coalition's phase, but based off the nature of Todd's query, the basis of your logic seemed flawed.

604.151: "If the Tholians are NOT attacked by turn #22, the Tholians become 'limit partners' with the Alliance."

Nowhere in that quote does it say the Tholians join on their half of the turn. It only says they join on Turn #22. And as turn 22 starts with the coalition half, then theoretically the Tholians would be able to use reaction and reserve movement against the coalition during their turn 22 operational moves.

This is similar to a debate a couple of years back about the release status of the Klingon Western fleet. It's stated in the rulebook (F&E2K) that all fleets are released on turn 3 (except the Home and Eastern Fleet) since the Hydrans become active that turn -- but the Hydran doesn't become active until their phase of the turn, so why would the Western fleet become active.

It was ruled that the Western and Southern Reserve fleets do indeed become active during the coalition half of the turn, before the Hydrans enter the war. This is illogical to me, that the coalition could send both fleets north or to whereever they wanted, in reaction to Hydran entry, but before the Hydrans actually enter the war. But that's how it was ruled.

That ruling now sets a precedent - it is possible for fleets to become active before the actual entry point of a nation or border becoming a war zone. I see no reason the Tholians could not become active on turn 22 coalition phase, certainly not by the wording of 604.151.

Of course, if the ruling is based on the idea that the Tholians are hesitant to enter someone else's fight, then that would be good supporting logic for your ruling. It is the logic I would use.

*~*

In conclusion, I would agree with your ruling, but if it's based solely on the quoted rule 604.151, then your logic is unsupported.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 08:15 pm: Edit

The FEDS ruling I think has bearing on my earlier question regarding Tholians and the calculation of victory conditions. Might be worth answering that question now that we have a ruling on the nature of Tholian entry.

By Todd E Jahnke (Tej) on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 10:02 pm: Edit

I observe that the following two statements do not set the same chronological condition:

"If the Tholians are NOT attacked by turn #22"

"an attack by the Coalition on the Tholians on or before the Coalition phase of turn 22"

In plain English, if you tell the kid to be home "by 10pm", the kid is in trouble for arriving at 1015, 1030, or 1045. The kid cannot argue that 1045pm is within the "10pm turn", which is exactly what the second statement above argues.

The Coalition phase of turn 22 is within turn 22, rather than before it. OTOH, turn 22 is unquestionably within turn 22, which is when the Tholians enter the war.

It isn't as if surprise or operational freedom are at issue. There is no surprise even pretended, or else the rules would speak of the Tholians like the Hydrans. There is no operational freedom, as regardless of when they enter the Tholians can only ever move within extended reaction range of Tholian space, except their expeditionary fleet which is rather exactly like in size to a RESV fleet.

I appeal.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 11:38 pm: Edit

OK I went and re-read my copy of the rules regarding Gorn entry. Please note I have the 2000 rules, not the 2010 rules (at least not yet). Although Gorn actions during the coalition half of Turn 12 were not limited under the 2000 rules, it looks like the errata changed this to what Chuck mentioned. Oh well, yet another change to how I thought things worked and how I have previously played it.

By Russell J. Manning (Rjmanning) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 10:11 am: Edit

I believe the above FEDS ruling is in contradiction to a ruling by G.O.D. from a number of years ago.

I am recalling the ruling was that an Empire attains the status of Belligerent at the start of the turn they enter the war unless otherwise specifically stated. However, my ability to use the search function on discus is horrible, so I have absolutely no chance of being able to find the previous ruling.

By Matthew Smith (Mattsmith) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 11:30 am: Edit

Q412.22

I have an appeal regarding previous rulings to 412.2.

It has been asked a few times whether a tug acting as a supply point can use reaction movement. This has always been answered that the first line of 412.2 says that a tug cannot move during the turn.

However, it doesn't say that. What it does say in the '89 rules, 2k rules and 2010 rules is that a tug cannot move at all during the "Player Turn" that it is assigned. And since "Player" and "Turn" are both capitalized in the rules, it's hard to believe that this was an accidental slip when G.O.D. really meant to say "turn."

That distinction (PLAYER TURN vs. "Turn") is what I believe FEAR missed each time he answered this question.

It doesn't say that it can't move during your opponent's player turn.

Ok, so if the Klingons designate a tug as a supply point during their half of turn 4, can it use reaction movement during the Alliance half of turn 4?

The Alliance half of turn 4 is a different player turn after all. So by strict reading of the rules, a supply tug *COULD* move by reaction movement during that other, different player turn since they aren't on the "restricted" list of 205.14.

If this is so, does a supply-tug using reaction movement give up the supply status just as if the tug was forced to retreat? I'd guess yes, but reaction and retreat are different tactical events, so I'm not certain.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 12:13 pm: Edit

No, I think the ruling is correct from the way I read it.

---

Quote:

(412.21) DESIGNATION: The owning player designates a tug at
the start of his Player Turn as a supply point (413.3), using (509.1)
Mission D. It remains in that role until the start of the owning
player’s next Player Turn, when it could be redesignated.

(412.22) NON-MOVING: A tug serving as a supply point cannot
move (by any means) during the Player Turn in which it is used in
this role.

---

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 12:42 pm: Edit

This could happen if enemy units enter it's hex and it abandons the role as a supply point during combat.

By Matthew Smith (Mattsmith) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Well, that's why I asking FEAR to reconsider.

The part you bolded doesn't address movement, it just addresses the role / mission of the tug.

There's three resolutions I see, perhaps FEAR sees more.

1.) The tug can move in reaction, since the rule is quite clear that it cannot move during the "Player Turn" and not "Player Turn and the subsequent opponent Player Turn." However, it loses it's status as a supply tug, just as if it had retreated.

2.) The tug can move in reaction, since the rule is quite clear that the restriction only applies to movement during that Player Turn where it was assigned, and since it was not forced to hastily retreat, it actually retains the status as a supply point.

3.) The use of "Player Turn" in 412.22 was unintentional and incorrect. What G.O.D. really meant was "Player Turn and subsequent Player Turn" with the exception that retreat is allowed during the subsequent Player Turn per 412.23.

Of the three, #3 is closest to what has been ruled, with the exception that nobody has ever mentioned the distinction between "player turn" and "turn." I think this was an oversight originally by Nick, and just hasn't been challenged before.

Of the three, I think #2 is an unlikely resolution, but by the strictest reading of the rules, it meets all conditions listed in the rules. It doesn't move during the Player Turn it was assigned. It is not prohibited from reaction movement per the reaction rules. It retains the mission per 412.21. It does not lose the mission per 412.23.

But really, of the three, I think #1 is probably closest to "original intent." But, that's a guess.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 05:37 pm: Edit

It seems obvious to me that #3 is what is closest to intended. Your wording however is poor, I would sustitute (perhaps) 'period of time' for 'Player Turn' in 412.22.


#2 is just crazy, how can you even think that would ever be a ruling?

By Matthew Smith (Mattsmith) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 07:37 pm: Edit

How can I believe #2 could be ruled?

I don't believe it will be ruled that way, but it easily could be.

Try this: Decide for a moment that SVC really meant what he said when he said "Player Turn" in 412.22. Does that not mean that 412.22 stops applying after RESV designation of the Player Turn in question?

And if 412.22 no longer applies, since AT4 is a different PT than CT4, now read the rules without reading 412.22 and tell me what rule would be violated if the tug moved with reaction movement?

Personally, I think #1 was the intent, since I believe SVC is normally very careful about the rules, and I believe "Player Turn" was exactly what he meant when he said "Player Turn."

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 08:03 pm: Edit

I don't think there's any oversight. Your argument, to me, seems based on the assumption that the tug is only being "used as a supply point" on the Player Turn on which it is assigned to that role, which is not true. It is used as a supply point on both Player Turns.

---

Quote:

The part you bolded doesn't address movement, it just addresses the role / mission of the tug.

---

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 08:12 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Of the three, I think #2 is an unlikely resolution, but by the strictest reading of the rules, it meets all conditions listed in the rules. It doesn't move during the Player Turn it was assigned. It is not prohibited from reaction movement per the reaction rules. It retains the mission per 412.21. It does not lose the mission per 412.23.

---

By Matthew Smith (Mattsmith) on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 08:42 am: Edit

---

Quote:

Your argument, to me, seems based on the assumption that the tug is only being "used as a supply point" on the Player Turn on which it is assigned to that role,

---

By Chris Upson (Misanthropope) on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 11:43 am: Edit

where did you get the idea the people who own the tug aren't morons? seriously.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 07:23 pm: Edit

UH, just what was the 'argument' about??

As far as I know, if a supply tug moves, for any reason, it loses supply status immediately at that point...

By Andrew Bruno (Admeeral) on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Yeah, that's pretty much it. But it seems that Matt wants the option to react or retreat on his off turn at his discretion with the caveat that once the supply tug moves it loses it's extended supply range. Correct? Otherwise it is treated like a base.

Though the spirit of the rules, to me, conveys that a tug assigned to supply point should not be able to react during the off turn of assigning it that mission.

Retreating is another debate.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 07:50 am: Edit

Q412.2 Does the Hydran special supply tug (509.1 O) as specified in (509.5) provide an exception to being able to move when it cannot trace a line of supply to Hydran controlled space? (509.51) specifies a limited number of ship turns of supply available to be used when it and any accompanying Hydran ships are out of supply.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 09:57 pm: Edit

A412.2 - Yes, the Hydran supply tug, as long as it has supply-turns left, can supply itself and other ships stacked with it. Once it hits zero S-T, it no longer functions and has to supply itself to function.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 08:12 am: Edit

Thomas to add to what Stewart said.

The special Supply Tug (noting it the unique tug, not any tug) permits 20 'ship turns' worth of ships to be considered 'in supply' (for movement and combat, but not the resupply of fighters (thats what the FCP can do!)).

To clarify - to move/fight as in Supply, the Tug does need to use 'one' of the '20 ship turns', as otherwise it would be considered out of supply (i.e. The Tug doesn't supply itself for 'free').

(How you use the 20 ship turns is down to the player - it could be 5 ships for 4 turns, or a different number of ships for several turns and the ships supplied can change each turn etc).

IIRC, you need to designate which ships (if any) receive the supply at the relevant Alliance Supply step (i.e. you can't during the combat phase elect to start supplying ships from the Special Supply Tug).

On the normal Supply Tug Question - I beleive Terry's post of 12.13 on the 20th is correct. (i.e. Opinion #3 is correct).

By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 10:28 am: Edit

Q308.23 - If a a carrier is lost to (or crippled by) directed damage, are the fighters considered as involuntary plus/minus points? Can they be used as such even if additional unresolved damage is resolved against ships rather than the fighters left homeless? (EG My opponent directs on and destroys my carrier group, leaving me 6 more points of damage to resolve. May I cripple a DW and claim my 6 involuntary minus points from the carrier's fighters for the next round?)

Note that in relation to this 308.23 states that these fighters are credited as involuntary minus points only if the "base were damaged or destroyed" and 308.21 speaks of "'involuntary minus points' resulting (only) from the destruction of a base or PDU by Directed Damage which leaves fighters and PFs 'homeless'."

On the other side of things 502.452 points to 308.23 in the event a PFT is destroyed by directed damage and the PFs are left homeless.

Also potentially related to this ruling is 302.53.

We've had a bit of a go-round about this over in the General Discussions thread starting on 28 Feb, if you wanted to see the long form of the various sides.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 11:32 am: Edit

Q521.0:
Do Ground Combat attacks need to be "declared" before the directed damage phase,or even the damage allocation phase? Some players seem to think this is necessary and other seem to think it's obvious if a G ship is going to be making an assault or not. In order to qualify to make a marine assault, you must pick a BIR of 4 (5 if picking both) and must have one or more G ships on the line (521.32, 521.33). Also, per the SoP, the first time a player can designate units doing an assault is in 5-6X3:

PHASE 5 - STEP 6X: TROOP ACTION INTERPHASE (302.6X)
5-6X1: Resolve Captured Ships (305.1); die roll modified by pursuit
(305.12), GCEs (521.5), web casters (525.74D),
and/or Prime Teams (522.43). Maulers may make a
separate capture attempt in lieu of their Directed Damage
use (308.47).
5-6X2: Determine the fate of admirals/generals (316.31). Transfer
admirals/generals who survive a destroyed or
crippled ship (316.144A).
5-6X3: Designate units participating in ground assault (521.36).
5-6X4: Conduct ground assaults (521.3); determine fate of Prime
Teams used in ground assault (522.4) - Mission 2.
5-6X5: Transfer or lose fighters and PFs as a result of any destroyed
defense battalion(s). Return any surviving GCEs
to their ship (521.34); Prime Teams may be reassigned
to any friendly unit within the hex (522.34).
5-6X6: Conduct ship transfers of GCEs (521.22).
5-6X7: Determine if any eligible ship casualties can enter Depot
Level Repair (DLR) system (424.33). Calculate and
record salvage for destroyed units (439.1).
5-6X8: Conduct base combat repairs at field rate (425.3).
5-6X9: Players may scuttle units they control (301.911).