No big deal, really. Some counters that are brown and a scenario. Obviously, the wyn war of return must be there!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

anybody want to write the scenario for a generic civil war? And perhaps for the war of return?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

I don't seem to recall if the are any fish ships out for playtest -- can anyone refresh my memory?

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:30 pm: Edit

There has been nothing published about the fish ships. And I've got it all (what has not already been published) right here.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Tzeeneth's website had stats for them IIRC, but those are far from gospel.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Fish ships should probably be discussed in the WYN topic. It should be fairly obvious, a DW is 6 and a CW is 7 and a CA is 8.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 09:31 am: Edit

How many different Kzinti Civil wars are we talking about?

IIRC there was one where the loser (and a few ships) managed to excape to the WYN cluster.

The history (Again, IIRC) implied that most Kzinti combat experience was intramural (noble vs noble) for many years before contact with established borders on the Kyran/Klingon/Fed fronts.

If the Kzinti' were beset with civil wars, it might help explain how the Carnivons were able to survive until the Lyrans and the Kzinti's managed to get well enough organized to extermina...errr...(sorry) um, I mean "deal appropriately" with the Carnivon threat.

Just as a suggestion, could we break the Kzinti Civil war(s) into 3 (or more?!?) broad catagories?

Early civil wars, that have 3 sides, Kzinti Royalist, Kzinti Usurper and Random Carnivon raiders.

Middle Years Kzinti Civil Wars, with 2 sides, Kzinti Royalist vs popular insurection (possibly rebellious sentient races that had been oppressed by the Kzinti such like the Cygnans were?)

and the War of return.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

I suppose that the carnivons survived by their combat power since they were about as disorganized as the Kzintis during that period.

You would definitely need Usurper War and War of Return, and probably a generic civil war as well.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

SVC:

Were there any Sentient races significant (powerful) enough to pose a threat to the Kzinti?

Would any of the Conquered races the history mentioned play a role in (or take advantage of) Kzinti Civil Wars?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:42 am: Edit

No, and no.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit

General question looking for discussion points:

For a "generic" Kzin civil war, would it make more sense for one noble (or rather the Nobles "House") to rebel and "Secede" from the Hegemony (as the LDR did from the Lyrans) or for 2 (or 3) nobles to rally together in an attempt to seize the Throne from the current monarch?

The distinction (I think) is that only one noble with a starbase and a fleet is not likely to be successful against the other nobles and the home fleet...while depending on the political situation, the Monarch may not want to have the Hegemony suffer a Secession, but the other Nobles won't fight to keep them in the Hegemony...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

There are four nobles, and when the throne is in question, it is usually two-against-two. If it's one-against-three, the one has enough sense to quit.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 09:45 am: Edit

Idea for Kzinti Generic War scenario-

1. Assume that Civil war could have broke out in a number of years/times so print 4 (or 5) orders of battles for the 5 fleets at given points.

2. devise rules for variable sides (in other words), with 4 nobles potentialy competing for the throne you could have

#1 and #2 vs #3 and #4 or
#1 and #3 vs #2 and #4 or
#1 and #4 vs #2 and #3 or

assuming one noble (for some reason "sits it out"
the Home Fleet and ONE of the 4 nobles VS 2 of the other nobles fleets..

If I am counting this correctly, that would be 6 variations.

Instead of one noble "sitting it out" the ships in his fleet desert to one of the other factions thus providing another variable in reinforcement (might actually want to limit that to the Barons Fleet only so the Lyran, Klingon or Fed borders are not left unguarded.)

edited

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit

How about a 4 sided civil war. The throne is up for grabs: Patriarch died and there was no Prince...

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 01:11 am: Edit

How about we just stick with the Usurper's War of Return.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 08:02 am: Edit

Chris:

Read the posts again.

SVC listed the Usurper war, the war of return AND possibly a generic civil war.

No probllem listing your opposition (again) but if you want to argue the decision on the 3 choices, I would suggest you take it up with SVC. (Hope hes in a good mood!)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit

I can be against something SVC proposes can't I?

(does not notice his booth time being set to max)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 05:17 pm: Edit

(Face becomes noticably pale)

What do you mean 'Manual Overide of safety protocols'?!?

You mean 'max' isnt 'max' any more?!?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:42 pm: Edit

Does anyone have a list of known Userper ship types used in the early war and the Count's ships used in the War of Return?

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 12:37 am: Edit

Which early war?

The first Usurper war used ships of every type available at the time. There is a group of scenarios in an old CL (earlier than 4) that have CLs, DFs, FFs, and CS.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Thanks Jeff. I had hoped that someone has a scenario listing with all the ships in a given SFB scenario as I have found a few scenario listing of A vs B and when but not the "what" and how many.

By Mike Ptak (Norsehound) on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 07:44 am: Edit

This is a by-product of the Playaid I proposed in the Playaids forum... eventually it worked it's way into Civil war.

Though SVC implies any Kzinti Civil wars (be they generic, Urusrper, or whatever) would be played on the normal F&E map (They would be quicker) I thought this would be of interest.

http://home.comcast.net/~norsehound/FE-Kzin-Civil-War.jpg

Note that the Barony spaces are all conjecture on my part. They can easily be removed for a 'final' version.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Just wondering - is there a list of which provinces belong to which noble?


Gary

By Richard Biggs (Richinq) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 02:19 am: Edit

Mike,

I could not find the page with the civil war jpg file.

Rich.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 08:46 pm: Edit

One idea which I thought might be interesting to consider when Civil Wars comes along is some kind of adoption of the 'Zone of Influence' rules (6FS.14) from the Firestorm scenario in CL35, and (I think) used in at least one other scenario.

They detail the effects of Kzinti interest in six nearby Federation provinces (2301, 2202, 2004, 2501, 2403 and 2204) which had been Kzinti-controlled once upon a time.


Whether it's in a regular General War (or ISC or Andro War) scenario, or a free campaign or whatnot, I was thinking that, as an optional rule at least, this kind of poisoned chalice might make things that bit more interesting for both Federation and Kzinti players...


...and maybe even for subsequent Kzinti civil wars if the Marquis is the one to benefit from a Kzinti resurgence in the ZoI.