Don't forget that only a Fed flag gets the two CP ships (308.93) - sop teh Gron DN forcer is 11 ships (DN + 10), while the Fed CC is 12 (CC + 9 + 2CP)...

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, March 19, 2012 - 10:23 am: Edit

The flagship rules ask for the three ships with the highest Command Rating. That may not be the same thing as the ship that can command the most ships. The Command Point rules say the ship can command extra ships beyond its Command Rating. However, they do not change the Command Rating. So as best I can tell, even though the Fed can command more ships, the rules ask for the Gorn. Whether that is the intended result could be another question.

By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Richard - I just realized I never posted my rebuttal to your response. Essentially, my line of thought is that there is no need for one rule to override the other in this case, given that they address events at different stages of the SOP.

302.32 (and its sub-rules) deal with the process of selecting a flagship in step 5-3D.
302.33 then addresses which vessels may be placed in the battle force (lead by the already-selected flagship), in step 5-3E.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 01:19 pm: Edit

I think you are really twisting the rule to cause something to happen that's not in the rules. I cannot find anywhere else any rule that disallows a single ship from being in a battle force if it's in the battle hex.

I feel it's pretty likely in my opinion that if taken to an official ruling, no such rule is going to be created to do this.

The rule saying that the highest command rating ship is the flag ship (in a battleforce) imo does not mean that you can't have an excused flagship candiate in the battle force. It just means you can't set a FF as a flag ship over the CA in the force in order to create a smaller maximum sized force. Imo.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Q521.35 Can a prime team support a supported ground attack? 521.35 provides that you get +1 for a supporting G and +1 for a supporting prime team. Rule says all bonuses and penalties are cumulative. However, 521.36 states that no more than on additional marine unit can support a G attack, so there's an explicit limit there. 522.42 (prime teams marine mode) provides no guidance on the issue. Opponent says that under 521.35 a supported G attack can itself be supported by a prime team, resulting in a net +2 to the roll. I say that a prime team supporting a G attack is equivalent to a supporting G, and thus the limit of one supporting unit applies under 521.36 - and accordingly only a +1 to the roll results. Which is correct?

A521.35 A prime team is not a marine unit, they are a prime team. When they are acting in marine mode it is just that, a mode. They are still a prime team not a marine unit.

Q540.25 The rule in 540.251 states: "...the planet (and its defenses) have joined the team's empire at the start of the next player turn of that empire (immediately)..."

It also states: "Note that if the planet joins your empire it is treated as a part of the adjoining fleet and if that fleet is inactive the new planet is in an inactive fleet area, but defenses can still be added to the planet and it produces income for the gaining race."

Rule 540.253 says: "If a Neutral Planet joins an empire, it produces income and can have PDUs added up to the normal limit, but is not part of the supply or strategic movement grid until the turn after the race is at war with or allied to the other adjoining race."

So, given all of that, my questions:

1.) The rules say that defenses can be added to the planet and it further clarifies that only PDUs (and by extension I assume PGBs) can be added to the planet. Can the empire send EPs to the planet via say a tug to allow it to build these defenses? Also could a tug be sent to the planet to add a PDU based on 433.422?

2.) If the planet joins an empire that has not been setup yet, can elements of the adjoining fleet be setup on the planet without being forced to accept internment? I would note here that per 540.251 opposing Diplomats are allowed to withdraw without being interned and it states that this rule is an exception to internment in this case only. This seems to imply that the planet is considered part of the empire and no longer a neutral. Also, can the empire send additional ships to the planet to help bolster its defense? Could a MON be sent to the planet?

3.) Since the planet generates EPs for "the gaining race", can a tug/LTT/TT be sent to the planet to pick up those EPs? Would the Tug have to be carrying a DIP team to make such a pickup?

A540.25 Answers to several parts:

1.) No, the hex the planet is still in is a neutral zone and only delivery of PDUs per 503.63 is allowed.

2.) No, the hex the planet is still in is a neutral zone and only delivery of PDUs per 503.63 by tug is allowed. There are also diplomatic missions allowed, but no warships.

3.) No, the hex the planet is still in is a neutral zone.

Q540.24 APPEAL: Finally, I have an appeal. It was ruled back in August 25, 2010 that Orion Smuggling cannot be used to take EPs from a planet that joined your empire by 540.25.

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Quote:

Q540.24 A diplomatically aligned Neutral Planet Generates EP’s but is not connected to adjacent grids and is in its own partial grid until such time you are at war with the other neighboring power. They accumulate EP's which may be used to locally construct defenses and/or accumulate.
May one use Orion Smuggling to transfer EP's to the planet to augment its indigenous EP's for construction projects?

A540.24 Sure, if you have them per (410.34). You would have to obey all rules concerning the use of EP’s for your Empire at that time based on your economic condition. If you are at Peace you could cancel PWC or use other diplomatic income to do this. Or, if you were at war but this was an inactive fleet from the general treasury at the local Orion’s rate of exchange.
The local planet would not allow you to pull such income via the Orions as they know it would just make their situation more untenable.

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However, in light of 540.251 the EPs clearly belong to the empire the planet joined not the planet itself, so why is there this restriction? Nothing in 540.25 supports this ruling. According to 410.341 Orion Smuggling is a perfectly legal way to move EPs out of a Partial Grid as well as into a Partial Grid.

A540.24 APPEAL No where in 540.251 or the rest of 540.25x does it say the planet share its income immediately. 540.253 specifically states that the planet does not belong to the supply grid of the empire it joined. Hence, no movement of economic points allowed. Ruling stands.
433.421 Clarification: Upgrades (adding PDUs/PGBs) to a planet with at least one existing PDU/PGB are effective immediately. If the enemy comes to fight there they face all your PDUs/PGBs.

Under (433.421) if a tug on in the case of a capital system (no tug reguired) a PDU being installed on a planet with zero (0) PDUs/PGBs is redevastated then the PDU/PGB being installed is lost and the recovery clock for devastation is restarted.

This is not a rule change, but rather a difference between upgrading the number of PDUs/PGBs on a planet and placing the first PDU/PGB on a planet.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Q430.21 At what point is a Province considered owned for the purposes of (430) economics?

A430.21 The first check for ownership is at the end of the current Combat Phase. If there are enemy units in the province at the end of the Combat Phase and no friendly units, the province is considered captured (430.22). Once captured, if the occupier continues the occupation, the occupier will receive one EP in his subsequent Economic Phase. If at any time before his Economic Phase the occupier does not satisfy (430.22) then no income is generated by the province for the occupier.

Long term capture (438.0) is counted from Economic Phase to Economic Phase with any disruption during the process, including a successful raid, resetting the clock.

Annexation (448.2) is also counted from Economic Phase to Economic Phase after long term capture takes effect. Raids do not affect this process unless the raid eliminates the garrison of the province.

Q320.4 A tug with troop pods and an MMG is attacking my colony in a commando raid.

Can I land the pods and still keep them when I leave, or is the fact that I'm doing a raid count as 'retreat' after one round of combat (causing me to lose the pods)?

A320.4 The pods are not detached from the Tug, so you keep them when you leave.

Q446.41 Do my G-factors get the +1 die roll bonus for 'only one G defending' even though there are no actual Gs defending a colony. (I assume a colony has no intrinsic G factor).

A446.41 There are two successful G attacks required to destroy the colony. This represents elimination of the infrastructure and defeating the local civilian authorities. There are no G factor quality of defenders on the colony, so, yes the +1 does count as there is really no G factor, but significant obstacles exist to count as at least one G factor even though there is none present.

Q320.43 Can I do one separate G attack per G factor I possess against the colony?

A320.43 Yes.

Q534.223 What happens if the Sabotage mission targets a unit such as a Hydran Battle Tug and successfully cripples it?

A534.233 The tug pods are inactive per (509.43) and the TG is crippled. Any minus points are used up during the raid phase as it is its own single combat round per (302.53) with the “transfer or die” effect.

Q534.224 How are Hydran hybrid carrier-ships handled with this rule.

A534.224 Hydran hybrid carrier-ships are not covered under this rule. Only Hydran “true” carriers are covered.

Q675.5 Are the Vudar Enclave rules used in the standard General War Grand Campaign scenario with all modules?

A675.5 This is a scenario rule, so like the Wind series (601-605) players can include it if they wish. It is not a requirement. Players could decide to play (601-603) and stop at the end of Turn 19 if they wish.

Q509.1-J1 Is a tug repairing a base required to be in any battle forces defending that base during the next turn?

Unlike base upgrades, base repairs are considered to take effect immediately, and (302.233) does not list them as a potential required unit. Due to the immediate turn-around of effect, I figured it kept a tug from performing any other function that turn, but that was about it.

However, (509.1-J1) says a tug repairing a base is subject to (308.453), which itself mentions that a tug repairing a base is a non-slow unit treated as a slow unit for mauler DirDam purposes.

A509.1-J1 (420.6) provides some guidance here even though it is not fully spelled out. Repairs of bases are in Step 2A3 of the SoP. As such, they are instantaneous and not a full turn activity like a conversion from a Mobile Base to a Battle Station for example. So, the reference in (509.1-J1) to (308.453) is inaccurate. The transport or set of transports performing the repair can move operationally on the turn of the repair, but do no other transport function that turn.

Q509.312 Is there an enabling rule somewhere that permits the mixing of pod types on the disruptor-race tugs? i would be surprised if you aren't "supposed" to be able to do it, but by the rules it would seem to require the tug to take two different missions simultaneously.

A509.312 No, rule (509.312) specifically prohibits this except for some Klingon-Lyran pods per (517.34)

Q302.77 A Kzinti 12 ship force executes a fighting retreat, retreating into a hex containing an undefended Lyran convoy.

The rules say that the attacking player is required to offer the defending player to an approach battle(302.22), but the Lyrans cannot create a battle force to fight the approach battle.

Does the Kzinti fleet have to offer an approach battle, and then retreat(per 302.775D)?
Or may it fight the convoy, and then retreat?

A302.77 Since the Kzinti’s have 12 ships and there is only one unit in the hex they are retreating into, priority 2 (302.732) is not met, so no fighting retreat is allowed. A standard retreat would be indicated and the Convoy would die in the subsequent combat in that hex.

Q508.16 Does a RDF exist on a undevastated planet that has never been captured?

A508.16 The RDF only comes into existence when a planet is under control of the original owner and it has no other defenses on it. Don’t try to read too much into it.

Q540.25 is Pavarak (5403) considered to be adjacent to the Gorn and ISC for diplomatic purposes and can it join one side or the other under the diplomacy rules?

A540.25 Yes, Pavarak is open to negotiations by both the ISC and the Gorns. But, the ISC needs to be an active player empire. (Using October 2007 ruling for Circle Trigon as precedence)

Q540.25 Does the same line of thought apply to Circle Trigon (5109) in future scenarios where the Romulan are involved?

A540.25 Yes, it is close enough to the Romulan’s to be influenced by them. But, the ISC needs to be an active player empire.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Q521.0 Do Ground Combat attacks need to be "declared" before the directed damage phase, or even the damage allocation phase? Some players seem to think this is necessary and other seem to think it's obvious if a G ship is going to be making an assault or not. In order to qualify to make a marine assault, you must pick a BIR of 4 (5 if picking both) and must have one or more G ships on the line (521.32, 521.33). Also, per the SoP, the first time a player can designate units doing an assault is in 5-6X3.

A521.0 You missed this entry in the SoP: 5-4A5: Players identify units that are eligible to participate in troop assaults (521.3) during this round. This is during the damage determination just after the variable Battle Intensity Rating is determined. This gives the attacker the option to use his troop ships or not. And, with an attacker chosen BIR of 4 this should be enough for the defender to know a ground attack is possible. If the defender chooses to not direct on those ships/units then he will take the lumps that are delivered later. Nothing further need be done until step 5-6X3, when the attacker may designate from 0 to whatever number of GCEs he designated in 5-4A5 to perform the attacks.

Q521.38 A planet has a single PDU but three GCEs present to defend it. The attacker is making two marine assaults. Can each GCE defend the PDU once, or can only one GCE total defend the GCE?

A521.38 Each attack by a GCE can be defended by additional defending GCE’s. So, in the example presented above two defending GCE’s can support the single PDU, one in each attack being available to take losses. Of course, if you want to go into further detail you can use Marine Assault (when released) to resolve your ground attacks. (521.382) says you must attack the supported PDUs first.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 03:40 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Q521.38 A planet has a single PDU but three GCEs present to defend it. The attacker is making two marine assaults. Can each GCE defend the PDU once, or can only one GCE total defend the GCE?

A521.38 Each attack by a GCE can be defended by additional defending GCE’s. So, in the example presented above two defending GCE’s can support the single PDU, one in each attack being available to take losses. Of course, if you want to go into further detail you can use Marine Assault (when released) to resolve your ground attacks. (521.382) says you must attack the supported PDUs first.

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By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Appeal forwarded.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 07:12 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Q320.4 A tug with troop pods and an MMG is attacking my colony in a commando raid.

Can I land the pods and still keep them when I leave, or is the fact that I'm doing a raid count as 'retreat' after one round of combat (causing me to lose the pods)?

A320.4 The pods are not detached from the Tug, so you keep them when you leave.

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By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 07:21 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Q509.312 Is there an enabling rule somewhere that permits the mixing of pod types on the disruptor-race tugs? i would be surprised if you aren't "supposed" to be able to do it, but by the rules it would seem to require the tug to take two different missions simultaneously.

A509.312 No, rule (509.312) specifically prohibits this except for some Klingon-Lyran pods per (517.34

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By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 11:00 pm: Edit

M. Parker - Both were my misreading of the question. Now that you have clarified, I can see what is being asked. I will get to them in the morning.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 09:36 am: Edit

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Quote:

The answer means that if the defender has 20 GCEs the attacker will have to burn through all 20 before it's even possible to score a PDU damage using G attacks, and that doesn't seem right when the photon grenades and disintegrate phasers are flying. (It is not hyperbole to have 20 defending GCEs, especially in a capital system.) There should be property damage occasionally. Based on the rules (as argued previously) it's entirely reasonable to state that one GCE can defend one PDU, and once that GCE is gone the PDU can be damaged by a subsequent additional G attack.

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 12:29 pm: Edit

I withdraw my appeal of the ruling on 521.38.

I strongly disagree with several of Rob's assertions, particularly the last post. It's child's play to get 8 defending Gs in the Zin capital with existing pods and starting G ships - and that's without the 8 Gs on the AUXes. But, yes, 20 is perhaps a *bit* of hyperbole, but when the Zin start with 16 it's not that far off.

And I *HAVE* seen Mike Parker buy IGCEs (though admitedly later in the war) and I think I remember seeing Richard Eitzen buy at least one or two extra G ships. FFGs are especially cheap and you can get one per turn.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 02:02 pm: Edit

I have never as an alliance player been able to afford to buy a Troop ship. I use what I have and try and keep them from getting blown up. My main use of troop ships as the alliance is to put an MMG and use him to bring a decent compot troop ship and as well to add to my chance to capture something. I have bought IGCE's for a planet, but it was at least a turn too early and Ted came and popped them easily.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 02:23 pm: Edit

The Zin can easily afford one FFG per turn, as they are the same cost as a FF. They're as useful as FFs for pinning purposes and the Zin can and do build regular FFs after, say, turn 2.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 02:54 pm: Edit

See reply in the General Discussion thread.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 23, 2012 - 05:22 am: Edit

The building a legal Battle line rule seems to have got more confusing (well I am lost!), so I think a formal answer would help (especially me).

Probably the eaiest is to give an example

Example Hex has the following ships in it : -

Lyran = 3 x DN, 2 x DW
Klingon - D7C, 3 x D6, D5V, AD5, F5E, D6D
Romulan = 2 x SP

So 5 Lyran, 8 Klingon and 2 Romulan

302.36 states you must use half the ships in the hex (or Command Rating if insufficient to control that number).

So from the example. 15 Coalition ships = Minimum 8 ships imust n the battle line.

The three highest Command Rating Ships are the Lyran DN's. As a Lyran DN led line can have 5 Lyran ships and up to 5 others - 302.321 (Minority Flagship rule) can't be utlilised.

So looking at the SOP -

5-3D - 3 Lyran DN's are the only Eligible Flagships

5-3E - Coalition builds a Line - with a DN as flag and adds 3 other Lyran ships and 4 other ships (or plus 4 Lyran and 3 to 5 Other Ships).

So, 50% min force rule is adhered to, the 50% Flag and same empire of the battle line is adhered to, a legal flagship is used (1 of 3 highest) and the highest CR ship (302.33, last but one sentence) leads the Battleforce.

Can the Coalition chose to build a line which is led by the Klingon CR9 ship? (As it stands, I don't believe so, as the Coalition can't invoke the Minority Flagship Rule – see above example)

If they can, can the Coalition build a line which is led by the Klingon CR9 ship AND has the Lyran DN's in the line? (As it stands, I don't believe so, as it falls foul of the 302.33 rule about the highest CR ship leading the force)

If only 2 Lyran DN's were available (Lyrans have say 2 x DN and 3 x DW’s in the hex) - would that change the answers?

Lastly, if the Lyrans only had 2 uncrippled DNs (and the other 3 Lyran ships was say a Crippled DN and 2 uncrippled DW’s) – would that change the answers?


In summary – which rules specific rules trump the other specific rules, on Battleforce creation?

Thanks

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, March 23, 2012 - 12:28 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Can the Coalition chose to build a line which is led by the Klingon CR9 ship?

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If only 2 Lyran DN's were available (Lyrans have say 2 x DN and 3 x DW’s in the hex) - would that change the answers?

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Lastly, if the Lyrans only had 2 uncrippled DNs (and the other 3 Lyran ships was say a Crippled DN and 2 uncrippled DW’s) – would that change the answers?

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By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, March 23, 2012 - 03:55 pm: Edit

One can illustrate some of the same issues with a simple example. Is it legal to have a line consisting of two Klingon F5 and a Lyran CW? The argument for this being illegal would be that the CW both has to be the flagship (302.33) and cannot be the flagship (as it is from the minority race).

Do the rules really intend to ban this line?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, March 23, 2012 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Paul, Robert, note that there is nothing restricting one to the L-DN limit of 10 ships - so a force of D7C, D6D (scout) and four other Klingons keeps the Lyran DNs in the minority...

William, even though the L-CW has the highest CR (and a CW+F5 line is also legal), the F5 can command all three as it has the second highest CR...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 24, 2012 - 05:57 am: Edit

Stewart

Both examples fall foul lf 302.33 - as the highest CR ship isn't the Flag.

Hence - what rule trumps what rule?

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Saturday, March 24, 2012 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Stewart,


But you can't do that. If the top three CR ships are of one race, and you can at a minimum form a battle force using one of those three and meet the minimum force requirements then you are compelled to do so. You can't game the battle line at that point to make those top three CR ships ineligible.

This is why it is very important to be mindful of the ships you send into battle and to keep a close eye on CR ratings. Otherwise you can get into problems where you are forced to use a flagship you really do not want to.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, March 24, 2012 - 09:09 pm: Edit

Q511.53 Under (511.52) certian units performing certian functions are limited to the capital system in which they are performing that function, e.g. Tug deploying a PDU to a planet under (509.1-K1) and (508.32).

1. Is such an unit automatically treated as a static unit under (511.53)?
2. If so, and no corresponding like unit remains available to place in the mobile fleet, does this allow the selection of a unit with similar compot to placed in the mobile fleet under (511.531)?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, March 24, 2012 - 09:13 pm: Edit

With allied fleets, I'd say that the 50% rule is king, as everything else follows...