I have a question regarding rule 603.5 for a general war game I'm currently playing. Here's a little background to help you better understand the situation and the question.

A successful Hydran expedition resulted in the Feds joining the alliance and entering the GW on coalition turn 5. The Feds chose to attack the Klingons on alliance turn 5.

On coalition turn 10 the Romulans attacked/invaded the Federation.

We're now on coalition turn 12, and the coalition player has just stated that per rule 603.54 the Gorn player cannot join the alliance and enter the war - until/unless the Romulans attack/invade Gorn space. The alliance player believes that since the Romulans attacked/invaded the Federation on turn 10 that the Gorn player is free to join the alliance and enter the war as normal on alliance turn 12. (since rule 603.5 starts off by stating "If the Romulans have not attacked the Federation or Gorns, ...").

Which player is correct, and under these circumstances can the Gorn player in our game join the alliance on alliance turn 12 or must the Gorn player wait to join the alliance until/unless such time he is attacked by the Romulans (or Klingons or Lyrans)?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Edit - deleted as James has posted in Strat Discussion on the Aggresive Fed rule!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 12:11 pm: Edit

James -- IMO the Alliance is correct. The Romulans have attacked the Federation, so the Gorns can join the Alliance

I would find any other ruling very surprising.

By James Dugan (Jdugan13) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Thanks William. I'm still searching and rereading all BBS posts I can find pertinent to rule 603.5, but haven't found anything that directly addresses the Romulan's having attacked the Federation on turn 10. Unfortunately I do not have any of the Captain's Logs certain posts mention and it seems some of the relevant information may have been included in them.

By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 07:20 pm: Edit

SWACs: 518

Q Can a SWAC be used from the support eschelon? 302.35 or must its carrier be in the battle line?
and can a Starbase use a SWAC on the approach battle?

No yes no would seem to be the answer.

Q Does a SWAC E3A affect Orion bases as carriers since they have fighters? yes

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 07:58 pm: Edit

James: In my opinion, William is incorrect. The current version of the rule 603.54 says explicitly that the Gorns do not go to war at all if the Feds start a war with the Klingons or the Romulans, unless someone attacks the Gorns, in which case they join the other side.

It is unfortunately crystal clear, at least to me. The Federation started a war with the Klingons. The Gorns will not go to war AT ALL, unless someone attacks them (the Gorns).

The words 'AT ALL' pretty much indicate that they do not go to war under any circumstance except for that listed in the rule (and the words 'at all' are in fact in the rule, it's not my addition).

Nasty eh?

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Richard,

I do not think that's the case here. 603.5x is for the Gorn Limited War scenario, which can only occur if the Romulans do *not* attack the Federation (603.2 Turn 12 rules). That's the only way you'd be able to invoke the 603.5 ruleset.

I'd also point out that by 601.14 it says:

"This has no effect on the date of Romulan or Gorn entry."

So I think the only way you can get the Gorn to never enter the war is for the Romulans to never attack the Federation. Otherwise if the Romulans attack, you never get to the Limited War rules for the Gorn.

But I could be wrong.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 10:42 pm: Edit

The exact rule:
603.54 If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans of the Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).

This apparently only applies if the Romulans did not attack the Federation (603.5).

So basically (in my opinion), if you attack the Klingons, and the Romulans don't attack, 603.5 applies at that point and 603.54 means the Gorns will not enter the war.

So if the Roms DO start a war with the Federation then 603.5 does not apply and the Gorns do jump in, at least as far as I can figure.

What a mess of a rule. :-/

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 11:23 pm: Edit

On the other hand, it produces a reasonable result, if your interpretation is upheld.

If the Feds attack the Klingons and the Romulans decide to sit it out, the alliance will probably do ok against the coalition and the Gorns have no need to come to their assistance. If the Romulans do enter the war, so do the Gorns.

It just needs to be more clear as to the intent of the rule.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 10:27 am: Edit

On the other hand it does seem to be a nice downside to the Feds entering the war early via the Expedition. The Gorn aren't going to fight a war they have no stake in and the Feds/Kzinti/Hydrans should be able to handle the Klingon/Lyrans without their assistance.

By James Dugan (Jdugan13) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 11:00 am: Edit

Thanks to all who responded. I apologize in advance if I've missed something, but I've searched everywhere on the BBS over the last several days and can't find a post with an official ruling on this. If there is a post I missed I would greatly appreciate someone posting a link to it. After rereading all the previous posts from the various searches, the recent posts here, as well as rereading the pertinent rules mentioned the answer to my specific question seems to be pretty clear.

Rule 603.2 (Turn 12) states: If the Romulans have entered Federation territory the Gorns enter the War as members of the alliance. All their forces are available; note Pre-War construction. If the Romulans have not entered Federation territory, see (603.5) below. Rule 603.5 itself starts with the statement "If the Romulans have not attacked the Federation or Gorns, ...". The wording of both rules seems to imply that 603.5 and its subsections do not apply if the Romulans have in fact attacked the Federation and entered Federation space.

If the above reasoning is in fact correct, I do have one follow up question. When do you evaluate whether the Romulans have attacked/entered Federation territory? Is this evaluation done only on turn 12, or is this done on turn 12 and every turn thereafter? As a specific example let's assume a successful Hydran expedition and an "Agressive Fed" player who then attacked the Klingons. Assuming the Romulan player keeps his fleets within Romulan territory until the end of coalition turn 12 rule 603.5 would then certainly seem to apply, but what would happen if the Romulan player then attacked and entered Federation territory on turn 13 or later? Would rule 603.5 still be in effect, preventing the Gorns from joining the alliance or even offering limited war support, or would 603.5 be negated by the turn 13 (or later) Romulan invasion of Federation territory?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 11:03 am: Edit

The part that needs to be fixed is if the Federation is attacked by the K/L/R at all then the Gorns should be permitted to enter into some sort of state of war supporting the Federation (IMHO).

By craig grinnell (Mauler) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Overthinking... Just remove the "turn #" and say that the Gorns can enter the turn after the romulans attack the federation.
Simple sollution to an apparently difficult dilemma

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Chuck,

True, but in the case that the Romulans never attack the Feds, Gorn Limitied War is meaningless. They can't build bases to extend their supply lines so therefore can do nothing to assist. In that case it's a lot more balancing to just leave them out of the war until the Romulans attack IMO.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Chuck, we also need to pin down what happens to Romulan production if they do not declare war after Turn 10. The Gorn are still limited to a peace time production level, but it is unclear what happens to the Romulans. This needs to be clarified without giving the Romulans an incentive to delay declaring war, building up at wartime production levels for a few more turns (at least until Turn 15), then declaring war and crushing the Gorns with a relatively stronger fleet.

By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Friday, March 30, 2012 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Slow unit retreat 302.74 B

3 FRDs retreat towed by 6 ships (2 Orion DN, OK6, CA, CA, BR)
plus empty LAV, FTL

Q1 is more than one round fought?
Q2 can non slow units(escorts/towing ships) choose to retreat without FRDs
Q2a Can ships pursue? Only ships in the slow retreat?
Q3 Can these FRDs use Combat Repair in slow retreat?
Q3a Can they Deficit spend to combat repair?

Q1 I think yes, but the rule is not explicit.
Q2 yes but must do so together
Q2a yes the slow unit pursuit force can split up to pursue. yes.
Q3 No: SOP 5-6X8: Conduct base combat repairs at field rate (425.3)is not done in retreat phase
.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 06:01 am: Edit

Q433.43 Can the Romulans build a spare set of modules during the construction phase (105.IW) 2B3 or (105.IW) 2B5 to be used later in the turn under (433.431) or (433.432) for a SP or SK respecetively at any starbase(s)?

Mike, autobump to Chuck as this is the game we are playing together.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 10:03 am: Edit

My opinions:

Q1 One round of slow unit retreat.
Q2 Units that are designated as towing FRDs can instead abandon the FRD they are designated as towing. However, this would create at least one round of normal combat at the FRD, before any slow unit retreat. Check the rules; I think any slow units have to be there as well.

Q2A Ships can pursue cripples that are not somehow part of the slow unit retreat. Any ships that do so are taken from the battleforce that is pursuing the slow unit retreat, ie 11 ships could pursue the slow unit retreat but 6 pursue cripples, leaving the other 5 ships to pursue the slow unit retreat.

Q3 See the SOP in the F&E play aids at the SFB website for the exact timing of when during battle rounds you can use combat repair.

Q3A Deficit spending, if one's limits have not been exceeded, can be used for combat repair to the best of my memory.

By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 11:46 am: Edit

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/15632.html?MondayDecember1820060501pm

The above link is one of the references i have to 1 round of combat.

Section C states "survives the battle" which implies 1 round but it might mean the pursuit force was annihilated with an FRD and 2 uncrippled ships left.

I'm confused after reading the SOP. I just want someone to state clearly it is one round if that is true.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Attention All:

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, April 01, 2012 - 02:16 am: Edit

Q1: In a game I am in (F&E2010, no expansions, the general war), the Hydrans have captured the Klingon Capital. In order to celebrate properly, I wish to conduct extra rounds of combat to properly bombard Klinshai. My opponent says I cannot do this, claiming I can only score 10 points of devastation. Clearly he must be mistaken, but I can't find the rule allowing the Hydrans to do this. Help?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, April 01, 2012 - 05:30 am: Edit

Richard, LOL @ bombing the Klingons back into the stone age.

Once a planet is devastated, it can't absorb any more damage during that combat. You could take advantage of (508.214) by devastating the planet again on a later turn to re-set the recovery clock. If it is in fact captured, I don't think you can devastate it again because it's then your planet.

By John Robinson (John_R) on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 01:01 pm: Edit

I know I should know this, but the answer escapes me at the moment. A tug moves a MB during strategic movement and begins to setup the MB. On the next turn, is the tug able to use strat move to go elsewhere or will it have to wait until the following turn to move Operationally or strategically)?

By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 01:17 pm: Edit

John: Check out 510.221 for this. The tug begins setting up the mobile base on step 8C of phasing player turn X, and the tug has to stay until step 1A of phasing player turn X+1. At that point, the base is set up and tug is free to move.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, April 08, 2012 - 06:41 am: Edit

Q433.43 Can Free Fighter Factors (431.74) be used when converting a modular Romulan SP or SK on the move if they have factors remaining?