chuck

excerpt from 302.3: "The ship in the Battle Force with the highest Command Rating must be the flagship". probably that was what william was referring to.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 06:27 pm: Edit

CU:

Specific rules trump general rules.

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 05:40 pm: Edit

we are playing the long distance war. Our question is capturing neutral provences. do you have to have a ship in them to get the 1 point? or just travel trough them like neutral zone hexes?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Provinces must be occupied to be captured...unless special rules say otherwise

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 01:02 am: Edit

even if they start as neutral?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Being neutral means that no one has claimed the space yet, to claim the space means survey/patrol, shifting people, material, etc...

Claiming income from a province isn't free...of course, annexation solves the garrison problem...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 09:40 am: Edit

So for the first time ever, I'm paying attention to the PF rules. And they aren't immediately clear to me.

So, using the Lyrans as the example. Their PF phase in schedule is:

T20: 6 PF flotillas
T21: 18 PF flotillas
T22: 6 PF flotillas

The Lyrans can't build PFTs till T21 (i.e. on Turn 1 of PF Phase In, everyone only gets PF on bases and can't build PFs till Turn 2 of PF Phase In, correct?)

The 6 free flotillas that show up on T20 have to go to bases first (1 per BATS, 2 per SB). If there are no more bases to put them on, they then go to (planets?) a PF pool. Things get murky here:

1) Do (original territory) planets get PFs for free over and above this? Or do they have to use the flotillas from the schedule?

2) If planets get their own free PFs, what turn do they get them on?

3) The flotillas in the pool of excess. They *can* go to PFTs (i.e. when all bases and planets are full of free flotillas, excess can go to PFTs), correct?

4) How long do excess PFs stay in the pool? Do you have to allocate them by the end of the turn? Or can you save them in a warehouse somewhere for the future?

Thanks!

By Jose R. Barreto (Jbarreto) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 10:50 am: Edit

Original planets get free PFs as per 502.63 on the second turn of PF deployment.

502.615 talks about the pool. Looks like the pool remains until you use all the PFs out of it or the capital is destroyed.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Ah, ok, so it looks like (on 5th reading and the above clarification) that the Pool works like this:

On PF Turn 1, the Lyrans get 6 flotillas. They go to bases (which presumably still exist).

On PF Turn 2, the Lyrans get 18 flotillas. And all their original planets with PDUs get 1/2 flotilla per PDU. The 18 flotillas first go to bases (that either never had PFs or lost their PFs), then go to PDUs (that lost their PFs already somehow?), and then go to the Pool, which provides PFs for PFTs and Bases/Planets that lose PFs in the future.

On PF Turn 3, the Lyrans get 6 flotillas. These go first to bases (that either never got flotillas or have since lost flotillas and not had them replaced by the Pool), then to PDUs that have lost flotillas (but still exist as PDUs), then to PFTs that need flotillas.

Does this seem correct?

Following this logic (which seems to be what the rule says), for example, on PF1, the Lyrans put, say, 2 flotillas each on 3xSB (using up their free flotillas). On PF2, they put 2 flotillas each on their two last un-flotillaed SBs, a flotilla each on their 4 surviving BATS, none on PDUs (as they just got them all for free this turn and haven't lost them yet), and then have 10 flotillas left in the Pool. They build a PFT, which gets one of those free flotillas, and then lose that flotilla during combat, and then replace it for free from the Pool, ending turn PF2 with 8 flotillas in the Pool. On PF3, they get 6 more free flotillas. The give 2 to a SB that was attacked, lost two flotillas, but didn't get destroyed, haven't lost any PFs from PDUs or other bases, and build a second PFT that gets a free flotilla, leaving them with 3 free flotillas from turn PF3, and they add them to the 8 flotillas in the Pool, giving them 11 flotillas left to use in the future to refill bases, then PDUs, and finally PFTs.

Does this seem like a correct example?

Thanks!

By Jose R. Barreto (Jbarreto) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Sounds right. That's how we are playing it in my current game, anyway.

My opponent has a better grasp on the PF deployment rules and can probably chime in with some things to look out for.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Remember that the PFs go to any base in the supply chain, including (newly built) bases outside Lyran territory... this can include garrison PDUs on captured planets ...

Planetary PFs are restricted to original starting planets but cover any 'extra' PDUs built upon them...

By Chris Upson (Misanthropope) on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 12:13 am: Edit

"flotilla" is a great word. i applaud whoever managed to make it stick. a giant reptilian monster chillin' in the pool with a margarita? no! english, b*es! our language is sillier than yours.

By Paul Edwards (Pablomatic) on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Here's my understanding of PF deployment Peter. I am the opponent Jose referred to above. If I am in error, my apologies to him.

Turn 1: (502.61) Lyrans get 6 flotillas to go to bases, plus all bases & PDUs get "modules" or whatever that can hold PFs up to their capacity but no actual PFs (441.412). Any extra flotillas go into the pool (502.615). Pool lasts forever and can be used for replacements or new construction but can only be added to by converting existing CVs to PFT types (442.11) or the free biannual Lyran/Gorn PFs (442.23). They also get an SAP for free.

Turn 2: Lyrans get 18 more flotillas to be deployed on bases that either never received PFs or who have since lost them. Extras go into the pool. They can now produce 2PFTs/Hvy Ftr CVs per turn (502.612, 530.222, 432.421) but not yet SCS (502.71), and can transfer (remove) PFs from bases (502.66) for use on PFTs or other bases, but must pick them up with a PFT. Also, each planet that the original owner still owns (so not my allied Bezwell Index that still has it's original PDUs plus ones it built while neutral) that has PDUs gets 1,2,or 4 flotillas for free on some PDUs (see 502.63 for details). Lyrans also begin to recieve 6 free PFs each turn (442.23). I think this is the turn they can build their PF replacement pods/pallets (I never did as they are then just E&S+special raid bait). They also get an LAP.

Turn 3: Lyrans get 6 more flotillas to be deployed on bases that either never received PFs or who have since lost them. Extras go into the pool. Also (502.71) they can now build their first SCS in place of a CVA (but if you don't the Feds will have to delay building the most powerful ship in the game--their own SCS 502.73 -- until the Kzinti build one so think twice, as I did not. Trust me, Fed SCS + CVL in a third way CVBG is bad news). Lyrans also get a free ASC.

Anything I'm missing?
Anyone please correct me if I am wrong.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 11:28 am: Edit

Paul wrote:
>>Turn 2: Lyrans get 18 more flotillas to be deployed on bases that either never received PFs or who have since lost them. Extras go into the pool.>>

Your understanding of things looks about the same as my understanding of things. My assessment of the turn 2 PF glut is:

-The Lyrans (or whoever) get 18xPF flotillas.
-These go to bases first, that either never got any, or lost the ones they had.
-These go to planets second. That either have lost flotillas (which is impossible, as T2 is when original planets get all their free flotillas, but on Turn 3, there could theoretically be original planets that lost flotillas and still have PDUs) or never got any (captured planets with PDUs, I'd guess?)
-These go to The Pool third, and can be used for PFTs or future replacements for bases and PDUs (or PFTs).

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Note that planets/PDUs outside Lyran territory can be covered by the free PFs [once the bases are covered (502.615)] or one can pay for PF infrastructure on/after PF2 ...

By Paul Edwards (Pablomatic) on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 11:18 pm: Edit

I do not believe that you are required to put more than the 2, 4, or 6 free flotillas on planets. So your third point is incorrect, they do not go on planets after all bases are full unless you want them to.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 12:12 am: Edit

Paul, Peter,

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Quote:

(502.615)If initial deployment PFs cannot be placed on bases (because bases have been destroyed and not replaced) they must be placed on available PDUs within the limits thereon.

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By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 10:10 am: Edit

Paul wrote:
>>I do not believe that you are required to put more than the 2, 4, or 6 free flotillas on planets. So your third point is incorrect, they do not go on planets after all bases are full unless you want them to.>>

What I'm trying to suss out there is that (502.615) says that once bases are full, the flotillas go to PDUs. Except that PDUs get flotillas for free. So unless PDUs lose flotillas (i.e. they lose a flotilla in combat, but somehow don't lose the PDUs that the flotillas are based on), or you have PDUs on captured planets, there aren't planets to put the flotillas on. Although if you *do* have planets that are missing flotillas (due to combat) or captured planets with PDUs, the rule appears to indicate that you have to put the free flotillas there before putting them in the Pool.

By Paul Edwards (Pablomatic) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Peter:

Well I guess I was wrong about the PDUs. Bezwell Index joined the Klingon Empire early on, and has four PDUs, I had build some PDUs in Hydran space, and the Romulans had built up Romulus and Remus long before PF introduction.
Jose and I will adjust the Coalition PF pools and place those PFs on the PDUs in question. We are however, assuming that PGBs don't have to get filled with PFs (I have some of those in Hydran space too).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:21 pm: Edit

PGBs do not get PFs as part of the initial free PFs during PF Turn 2. See (441.15).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:28 pm: Edit

FEAR will probably need to clarify but my understanding is that if a neutral zone planet joins a given empire via diplomacy (540.25) then PFs can be add to the planet during PF Turn 2 (502.63).

Although that does bring into question a planet that is annexed (448.28).

Q502.63 Does a planet that has been annexed (448.28) with friendly PDUs placed before PF Turn 2 (502.62) become eligible to receive the free upgrade of PFs for the appropriate number of flotillas?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Peter,

Only the orginal PDU's on a planet get free PFs. If you have added additional PDUs above that they do not recieve them.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Ryan wrote:
>>Only the orginal PDU's on a planet get free PFs. If you have added additional PDUs above that they do not recieve them.>>

Ah, ok--so if you are the Lyrans have have 8xPDUs on your Capital, they all get free PF flotillas (well, 1/2 flotillas). If you are the Kzinti who never lost their Capital and you have 20xPDUs when you get PFs, the Capital gets 4 free flotillas, and then if you want the other 6 flotillas, you need to put them there from the free ones (before they go to the Pool).

So what if the Kzinti lost their Capital, regained their Capital, and built 8 new PDUs on their Homeworld. Do they get free "original planet" PFs?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 06:35 pm: Edit

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Quote:

So what if the Kzinti lost their Capital, regained their Capital, and built 8 new PDUs on their Homeworld. Do they get free "original planet" PFs?

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By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Ok, cool. Thanks!