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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Proposal for re-writing rule 601.12 in order to remove artifact references to the two Marquis provinces. Basically, the original rule in the original game stated the release conditions for Marquis fleet and Federation 4th fleet (and Limited War for the Federation). The release conditions were triggered if any Coalition unit entered the two Marquis provinces between turns 2 and 6. However, in AO the rule was changed to carve out hexes 1805 and 1705 as being part part of the Duke's deployment zone. Later, in F&E 2010 the rule was changed again to add a sentence at the end that provided that "Hex 1805 is part of the Duke's fleet, so while that BATS in that hex can be upgraded, a Coalition attack on it will not activate the Federation."

So, the confusion basically is that there appears to be a release trigger upon entering the province, which is excepted later by the last sentence. It may be better to re-write the rule to remove the artifacts created by the rule's history. The following is a proposal for that re-write:


"The Marquis Zone consists only of province 1802 (hexes 1801, 1802, 1901, 1902, and 2001) plus hexes 1704, 1803, and 1804. If any Coalition unit enters the Marquis zone during Turn #2 through Turn #6, then all of the following occurs: 1) The Marquis fleet is fully released; 2) The Federation 4th fleet is released immediately and may operate in Kzinti territory; and 3) the Federation goes to limited war to support the Kzinti. For purposes of this rule, any Orion mercenary in the employ of the Coalition counts as a Coalition unit. Hexes 1705 and 1805 are not part of the Marquis zone, but rather are part of the Duke's deployment area."

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 10:02 pm: Edit

I had an earlier proposal for this rule in another thread. Dave Butler provided some criticisms, which I took to heart. This version is different from my first version.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 10:23 pm: Edit

We need to clarify the staus of three hexes: 1705, 1804, 1805. I am nearly certain 1805 is intended to be part of the Duke's deployment area, and mostly sure that 1705 is the same, but I am not so sure about 1804. 1704 appears to be clearly part of the Marquis deployment area, so Coalition activty here would trigger Federation limited war. We need clear, unambiguous language that says this, rather than the wording we have now.

Even if it is decided that the Coalition can enter and attack Kzinti forces in this area without triggering Federation limited war, I still think there needs to be some limits as to what the Coalition can do in this area so as to not make the Feds unhappy. Can the Coalition setup and upgrade bases here while the Federation remains neutral? To me it seems silly that they could do that here, but could not do so in the Klingon Eastern fleet deployment area, nor could the Kzinti upgrade bases in the Marquis area.

At the end of the day, I still think the way the rule was before Advanced Operations changed it was the most clear, logical and consistent. I would still prefer that rule.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 12:50 am: Edit

Kosta, I believe the proposed language is very precise and currently includes 1804 in the "triggering area." As that is my understanding of the way the rule is supposed to work.

As for whether it's better just to say "Marquis provinces" and leave 1805 a "trigger hex", well, I don't know. The only reason I could think of why they want 1805 in Duke's deployment zone is becuase of the effect on raids and E&S missions and they thought it unfair to prevent the Coalition from taking out the raid supply point. Dunno. If they wanted to put it back I would shed no tears. My sole purpose here is to "fix" the rule so that it does what the designer wants it to do without having any artifact language in it from older versions of the rule.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 12:51 am: Edit

I think I don't have the right format. next post has the official proposal in the (I hope) right format.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 12:53 am: Edit

Proposed re-wording for rule 601.12 to remove apparent confusion caused by history of rules changes from F&E2K to AO to F&E2010: "The Marquis Zone consists only of province 1802 (hexes 1801, 1802, 1901, 1902, and 2001) plus hexes 1704, 1803, and 1804. If any Coalition unit enters the Marquis zone during Turn #2 through Turn #6, then all of the following occurs: 1) The Marquis fleet is fully released; 2) The Federation 4th fleet is released immediately and may operate in Kzinti territory; and 3) the Federation goes to limited war to support the Kzinti. For purposes of this rule, any Orion mercenary in the employ of the Coalition counts as a Coalition unit. Hexes 1705 and 1805 are not part of the Marquis zone, but rather are part of the Duke's deployment area."
Ted Fay 17 September 2012.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 04:53 am: Edit

Suggest changing ""...during Turn #2 through Turn #6..." to "...prior to Turn #7..." Yes, the Lyrans can't get there on Turn#1, but it's just simpler to not create the question.

By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 08:04 am: Edit

A minor suggestion, Ted... change

"Hexes 1705 and 1805 are not part of the Marquis zone, but rather part of the Duke's deployment area"

to

"Hexes 1705 and 1805 are part of the Duke's deployment area and are not subject to this restriction."

By referring to the hexes only in the context of a single area, you reduce the possibility of creating confusion for players who are not familiar with the history of this debate (eg, new guys we rope in to our madness)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 09:27 am: Edit

Proposed re-wording for rule 601.12 to remove apparent confusion caused by history of rules changes from F&E2K to AO to F&E2010 (Draft 2): "The Marquis Zone consists only of province 1802 (hexes 1801, 1802, 1901, 1902, and 2001) plus hexes 1704, 1803, and 1804. If any Coalition unit enters the Marquis zone prior to Turn #7, then all of the following occurs: 1) The Marquis fleet is fully released; 2) The Federation 4th fleet is released immediately and may operate in Kzinti territory; and 3) the Federation goes to limited war to support the Kzinti. For purposes of this rule, any Orion mercenary in the employ of the Coalition counts as a Coalition unit. Hexes 1705 and 1805 are part of the Duke's deployment area and are not subject to this restriction. Therefore, for example, the Coalition may enter and occupy Hexes 1705 and 1805 prior to Turn #7 without triggering any of the above events."
Ted Fay 17 September 2012.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 09:30 am: Edit

Thanks to Jason and Patrick. I added the last sentence to ensure the correct interpretation of the import of Hexes 1705 and 1805 being part of the Duke's deployment area.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 11:48 am: Edit

Ted--that looks good and clear. I would use capitals for Marquis Zone in all instances, to indicate that it is a specific, defined term. And I'm not sure you need the word "only" in the first sentence:

"The Marquis Zone consists of province 1802 (hexes 1801, 1802, 1901, 1902, and 2001) plus hexes 1704, 1803, and 1804. If any Coalition unit enters the Marquis Zone prior to Turn #7, then all of the following occurs:..."

I'd also have a mention of BATS 1805 in that last sentence:

"... Hexes 1705 and 1805 (and the BATS in 1805) are part of the Duke's deployment area and are not subject to this restriction. Therefore, for example, the Coalition may enter and occupy Hexes 1705 and 1805 prior to Turn #7 without triggering any of the above events."

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 12:37 pm: Edit

I'll use quotes. I don't think all caps is really the style in the F&E rules.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Proposed re-wording for rule 601.12 to remove apparent confusion caused by history of rules changes from F&E2K to AO to F&E2010 (Draft 3): "The "Marquis Zone" consists of province 1802 (hexes 1801, 1802, 1901, 1902, and 2001) plus hexes 1704, 1803, and 1804. If any Coalition unit enters the Marquis Zone prior to Turn #7, then all of the following occurs: 1) The Marquis fleet is fully released; 2) The Federation 4th fleet is released immediately and may operate in Kzinti territory; and 3) the Federation goes to limited war to support the Kzinti. For purposes of this rule, any Orion mercenary in the employ of the Coalition counts as a Coalition unit. Hexes 1705 and 1805 (and BATS 1805) are part of the Duke's deployment area and are not subject to this restriction. Therefore, for example, the Coalition may enter and occupy Hexes 1705 and 1805, and attack or destroy BATS 1805, prior to Turn #7 without triggering any of the above events."
Ted Fay 17 September 2012.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Ted--that looks excellent.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Ted wrote:
>>I'll use quotes. I don't think all caps is really the style in the F&E rules.>>

Ah, I just figured out what was going on here. I meant *capitalize* Marquis Zone in all instances (as opposed to marquis zone or Marquis zone), not *all caps* MARQUIS ZONE in all instances. Heh. :-)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Thanks, Peter.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 01:07 pm: Edit

I would suggest another approach, although the wording proposed clears things up I believe.

We go back to the situation of F&E2000. The rationale being that AO is the beast that made things crazy after 2000 clarified the situation perfectly.

The HUGE problem was that when AO muddied the waters the 1805 BATS got to be upgraded without a chance of coalition reprisals (unless they wanted to open limited war with the FEDS). This was unfair I agree.

I sincerely doubt it had anything to do with adding additional range to Kzinti raids, and even though it does this, such is not a major consideration. It also seems unlikely that 1805 will become a popular staging base for fleet actions into Klingon territory because the beauty of the 1704 Haven is you can stack your fleet there threaten the Klingons as well as defend the SB. You cannot likely defend both 1704 and 1805 so 1704 is the usual choice.

So to me the issue is, AO made a change that allowed a reading of the rules that could allow an uncontested upgrade of BATS 1805.

A quick fix was implimented saying "If you upgrqade the BATS the coalition can smash it" paraphrased of course. Then 2010 didn't do much more than spiffy up the language to the quick fix which shouldn't have been done in the first place.

The proper fix should be to change the Marquis and Dukes Deployment areas to be as they were in F&E 2000. This solves several things game balance wise, aesthetically, and game history realistically.

1. It stops the REAL reason any discussion of 1805 came up. Uncontested upgradal (at least without triggering Limited War with the FEDS)

2. It makes little sense to say the FEDS are applying pressure by promising to intervene in the Marquis area, but then allow the Klingons to hit those hexes. Its just silly to my mind. Going back to F&E 2000 fixes this quite easily.

3. Aesthetically the rule is more concise, and there are no weird exceptions. F&E 2000 just plain handled things in a simple straight forward way, without any exceptions or clarifications needed... hence properly!

Now I know folks have invested time in a new rule and language. But strong consideration for the simpler rule that worked before AO (an otherwise excellent product of which I own three copies) muddied the waters.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I'm fine with returning to the basic principle that everything in both Marquis provinces is included in the triggering action, and all bases therein are unreleased and therefore un-upgradable.

I've assumed that there's a reason why they wanted to carve out those two hexes and put them into Duke's hold and that the reason still holds. Reversion is great, IMHO, but if they don't want to revert then just clean up the language.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Michael wrote:
>>The proper fix should be to change the Marquis and Dukes Deployment areas to be as they were in F&E 2000. This solves several things game balance wise, aesthetically, and game history realistically.>>

I'm 100% behind this. I mean, if the PTB are really insistent on BATS 1805 being killable, then Ted's wording is perfect. That being said, I'm wildly unconvinced that it is important that BATS 1805 needs to be a target before T7. And would like to find someone who was involved in the decision making process that lead from the very clear F&E2K wording of the Duke and Marquis deployment areas (very cut and dry; no weirdness at all) to the AO/2K10 wording (which results in weirdness). Does such a person exist?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Those bases are retrograde points and safe havens for Kzinti fleets if part of the Marquis area, extending the range of Kzinti strikes into Klingon space by two hexes. For example, this brings Klegarine (the major planet two hexes east of Klinshai) into range. It also brings more colony sites into range of possible Kzinti strikes as well.

As an aside, when this was done, I think some of the Klingon East Fleet deployment area became attackable by the Kzintis. This may also need to be addressed.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Richard wrote:
>>Those bases are retrograde points and safe havens for Kzinti fleets if part of the Marquis area, extending the range of Kzinti strikes into Klingon space by two hexes.>>

Well, yes. But the game survived perfectly fine from 1986 (when the game was printed with the (601.12) rule) till 2003 (when AO came out and sort of arbitrarily changed the deployment areas of the two Kzinti fleets) with BATS 1805 being unassailable.

I mean, to be fair, the fleet setup rules were ambiguous from 1986 till 1999 (as the Duke's Fleet could set up in the Marquis Provinces, but it was still clear that the Marquis Provinces is inviolable and BATS 1805 was something you couldn't attack without activating the Feds). But certainly from 2000 to 2003 (and really, up until that point), BATS 1805 was something that couldn't be attacked till Turn 7.

Why, in 2003, did it suddenly become necessary to allow the Coalition to attack BATS 1805, when the game worked perfectly fine for the previous 17 years when they couldn't?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Peter, my theory is raids - as that was what was added in AO. However, I could be wrong.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 10:09 pm: Edit

I think there was a time when people would upgrade the BATS 1805 to a starbase (If the Dukes fleet could set up there, then the base was presumably released to be upgraded), but if the coalition attacked it then the Feds would be activated (as it was still Marquis). This was deemed a bad thing, so it was removed from the Marquis area entirely to prevent the free starbase upgrade.

This is what I remember, it has been a long time though.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 07:24 am: Edit

Ted wrote:
>>Peter, my theory is raids - as that was what was added in AO. However, I could be wrong.>>

That could very well be the case. I mean, it seems like a lot of work to go through to make the Kzinti raid potential 1 hex shorter, but you certainly could be correct. No one seems to remember the answer as to "Why", yet, however.