Archive through October 31, 2012
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A:
Archive through October 31, 2012
Additional Information for consideration of the Out of Supply Tug becoming a Supply Tug.
Quote:(517.24) As provided in (509.32), the role of tugs is designated at the start of the owning player's turn. In Combined Operations, this role is designated by placing a pod counter with the tug (if appropriate). A tug which is in supply can draw a pod ''from the pool" and can return a pod it will no longer use "to the pool" A pod can be taken from one tug and immediately be given to another tug, anywhere within the same Supply Grid. Pods cease to function on a crippled tug; they have no crippled factors and are not accounted for in subsequent attacks on the tug (they are of course destroyed with the tug). For example, a crippled tug with a carrier pod cannot be used as an escort (515.34) because it is still a tug with a carrier pod (515.32).
If the Tug in question is/was performing a mission that requires pod(s) specific to that mission, e.g. Mission B, Carrier Tug, Then either the Pods would be lost, or the mission cannot be changed.
Reasoning: (517.24) states that the pods are transferred as needed by dedicated staff officers. This would apply in a partial grid, or the main grid under (413.4) and (509.3).
I do not believe that such a mission change could be done by a tug that is out of supply, unless the Tug was using mission M normal warship (509.1-M). The supply tug mission requires standard cargo pods to perform this mission. Mission X (Bulid Colony) for example might require that the tug have the equivalent of 1 Troop Pod for transporting colonists, and 1 Cargo Pod for transporting supplies. Mission F (Move FRD) would require that the tug not have any pods because of the physical hook up required for the Tug to move the FRD.
Turtle:
Your reading to much into the rules. Cargo (freighter) pods are plentiful even if a given tug is not connected to its main or partial supply grid.
Using your logic, are you saying the follow mission assignment would NOT be possible:
(509.1-H) Economic Transfer Tug:
On a previous turn Kzinti Tug A served as a rescue tug (a mission requiring no pod) during combat of turn #8, and subsequently retrogrades it to the Fed capital (and out of supply from any Kzinti supply point). On turn nine, the Kzinti choose to designate a new mission for Tug A as Economic Transfer Tug and the feds load it with EPs and strategic move Tug A it back on turn #9 to the Kzinti capital.
Quote:(509.36) UNUSED PODS: Pods not on tugs are designated as to which Supply Grid they are in. A tug can only use a pod if it can draw supplies from the grid containing that pod and releases its pods into the Supply Grid that it is drawing supplies from. If a grid is divided, any unattached pods must be specified as to which part of the grid they are in. If the last base in a grid is destroyed (and the last planet captured), any unattached pods in that grid are destroyed.
(509.46) UNRECORDED PODS: Repair and cargo pods are not specifically accounted for and need not be replaced if lost. Dedicated staff officers will make sure that these are available as needed.
From (414.0) SUPPLY CONVOYS
Each of the major empires has one or more convoy counters. These counters represent a concentration of freighters to provide supplies to the forward fleets. These represent only a tiny fraction of the total number of freighters within the empire, and more accurately reflect a focus of effort rather than specific ships. The presence of a convoy marker in a given hex means many freighters are traveling to and from that hex.
Bottomline: Rule (509.46) cover this as those dedicated staff officers will arrange for there to be cargo pods available if the mission calls for them.
In the case of an unsupplied battle tug wishing to change mission, if the tug is not in a supply grid, where does the battle pod go?
I suppose you would have to ditch the pods (they would be lost) unless you had another tug or theater transports there to move them to? (I.e. you might not want to change missions in those circumstances unless it was critical to do so).
Quote:In the case of an unsupplied battle tug wishing to change mission, if the tug is not in a supply grid, where does the battle pod go?
FEDS Ruling:
If any tug drops a previously assigned pod counter outside of a valid supply grid and if there is no other valid collocated transport available to immediately reattach the pod counter then the pod counter is destroyed and no salvage for the pod is recorded; see last line of (509.36).
Q510.2. May a tug carry a MB by operational movement to a hex, but not begin the MB setup process until the strategic movement phase? Example: A Lyran tug carrying a MB enters the Hydran capital. After an exceptionally bloody conflict the Hydran lose their capital and it is captured by the Coalition. May said Lyran tug, having survived the battle, begin setup of the MB during the strategic movement phase of the same Coalition turn? My guess is "no" because the tug is not moving by strategic movement, but it could be "yes" because MBs can be setup in the strategic movement phase and the tug is already there. Ruling requested, thanks.
See Rule (510.213), tugs carrying mobile bases cannot enter hexes containing enemey units.
(Neither can an OPS base)
Your situation as you describe cannot occur. you have to clear the capital hex first, then move the MB in later.
I suppose you could have a weird situation where you move an MB to an empty hex, and the enemy could react on top of it. According to the SOP, I guess you could declare you are deploying it in that situation, but the enemy has two chances to stop it, the reaction battle, and any battle initiated on their player turn, but this is just speculation on my part. Maybe you are not allowed to do so if reacted to in this fashion.
I also don't see anything in the SOP that ties a tug to one of the two MB deployment declaration steps (although perhaps the relevent rules imply such a thing), so maybe you could use Op movement, and a Strat move setup declaration, but I doubt there is ever a reason to do so, unless the reaction situation above requires such a delay in declaration.
Ted:
Your example is flawed:
Ref: (510.213) Mobile bases can be transported and placed only by tugs of the same empire. Tugs transporting mobile bases cannot enter hexes containing enemy units. A tug is required even in the capital hex.
There is no way the undeployed MB can be in the hex to begin with.
Chuck and Nick, thank you.
Let me change the facts slightly, then. What would happen if I moved said MB into an *empty* hex during operational movement - but wanted to wait and see what would happen during combat that turn to decide whether I wanted to set it up during strategic movement of the same turn?
If the MB fails to declare set up during SoP 3B6 (choosing to wait until SoP 8C), then the MB is NOT under construction (as it actually remains under transport) and cannot benefit from (510.231) during the following combat phase.
Quote:(510.23) COMBAT DURING CONSTRUCTION: The only way to
destroy an undeployed mobile base is to destroy the tug carrying/
deploying it or the base at which it is stored. The tug must
remain with the undeployed mobile base (i.e., not abandon it), or
the base is destroyed immediately and automatically.
(510.231) The base, even though not functional, is treated the
same as a functional base for the purpose of approach battles. If
the tug is sent to participate in the approach battle, it has abandoned
the undeployed mobile base. After the approach battle,
the base (combat factor zero) must be included in the Battle Force
if the enemy desires to fight at the base (which he almost certainly
will). If the enemy does not wish to fight at the base, the tug
cannot be used in the Battle Force unless it abandons the
undeployed base.
(510.232) If the tug is not included in the Battle Force, it is considered
to have abandoned the undeployed base. If the tug is
included in the Battle Force and destroyed, the incomplete base
is also destroyed.
One consequence of waiting until SoP 8C:
If your enemy should fighting retreat into your hex during this time, you could not use (302.775) to shield the transit tug+MB since the MB is not under construction.
OK, then it seems that I could wait until step 8C - with the consequences you note. Thanks.
Ref: MB Deployment
FEDS Ruling: Players mays declare deployment of MBs during either two of the existing SoP steps 3B6 or 8C. Note that at any time an undeployed MB is in storage or in transit, it does not benefit from (510.23).
Question on (603.U) The Hurricane Updated Scenario (i.e. the separate sectors).
The Federation Economy, as divided among the three Federation sectors (C, D, E) doesn't add up. Literally.
According to the three sector areas, the Fed Capital economy is divided as such:
-Sector C (603.UC53): 15 points from the Capital.
-Sector D (603.UD42): 31 points from the Capital (including the Capital Province).
-Sector E (603.UE32): 5 points from the Capital.
This adds up to a total of 51 EPs from the Federation Capital being accounted for in the three sectors.
The Federation Capital produces 61 EPs.
The Federation Capital has:
-7x Major Planets (35 EPs)
-8x Minor Planets (24 EPs)
Which is 59 EPs from planets. Add 2 from the Capital Province (as indicated in Sector D), and the Federation Capital is worth 61 EPs.
The three Sector scenarios only account for 51 EPs. Where is the other 10 going? Orion Pirates?
(I'm assuming that Sector E is actually supposed to be getting *15* EPs from the Capital and not 5, and it is just a typo)
(603.UE32): Correct typo - should read: "15 points from the Capital."
511.321. Old colonies shipyard.
The 3 free fighter factors/turn.
Are these *normal* free fighter factors, meaning that a fighter on a hybrid ship is .5 of those, or hybrid FFF that use 1 per fighter factor on a hybrid ship?
What if you convert one of these ships produced at the old colonies shipyard into a carrier?
It says they can be accumulated, does that mean in the 6+ turns while making the replacement shipyard they can add up to 18 or more, actually allowing the IC to be economically feasible?
Thanks!
542.16 states that Hydran SR's are obsolete (despite being made in 158, while the LN was in 133 and very much in use) and can no longer be built.
However, the next survey ship, the PIC, isn't available until 171 (and the PGR in 174). So is it intentional that Hydrans are the only race incapable of producing a survey ship at the start of the General war?
Eric S
511.321 - 'The old shipyard produces three free fighter factors (for hybrid ships) per turn...'
seems pretty definate...
542.16 - Yep (at the moment)...
Sorta, but hybrid only fighters are always referred to as "hybrid fighters". In this case, it sounded to me more like it was just mentioning the production as affirmation on the few ships that can be produced by the old colonies shipyard, than a restriction on production. As you *could* substitute a CV for the RN (well its cheaper than the IC!!!) how would those FFF's be applied?
The SR thing seems nuts. I can see a reason to say its obsolete (its a cheap Survey Cruiser) but to prevent production of *any* SR seems kinda unlikely. However, it isn't like our own history doesn't have time periods where "obsolete" equipment is in use and no replacement being produced as the new model is "still in development". Take the B52 as an example. I just wanted to be sure it was intentional and not an oversight. The "other" survey cruiser that rule mentions, the Fed CLS, is replaced by the GSC, so the SR seemed outta place.
RE: Hydran Free Fighter Factors
Asked & Answered in CL35
Quote:Q: The Hydran Guild Shipyard gets (511.321) “three free fighter factors for hybrid ships” per turn. Are these three “hybrid factors” (worth three EPs) or three “standard fighter factors but only usable on hybrid ships”. Can they use them to build a ship such as the IC which uses standard fighter factors? Since Free Fighter Factors were changed to an annual allowance, does the Guild Shipyard really get six per Spring turn and none in the Fall?
A: They are three “hybrid factors” (worth three EPs). They could be used on the IC but each one would give the IC only half of a fighter factor. While this could be an exception due to the way the rule is written, feel free to treat it as six per Spring turn.
Players and F&E Staffers are reminded to check and/or query the Q&A archieve posted here on the BBS.
Q603.UE14 (603.UE14) lists the DW being available in for production in the construction schedule staring in Y175. However the DW is only available in Combined Operations. Do you substitute FFs for the DWs if playing without Combined Operations?
Fed FFs for DWs is a permitted substitution.
One will also note that the Fed schedule swaps DW for FF on a one-for-one basis.
Q603.54. Currently this rule allows the Coalition to force the Alliance on the horns of a dilemma: Attack the Klingons and lose the Gorn, or let the Klingons and Lyrans utterly dominate the Hydrans and Kzinti *and then* allow the Coalition to attack on their terms when they're ready (like C11 or C12).
Chuck Strong (FEDS) suggested a rule change for discussion. I've reproduced it below:
Quote:By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 02:46 am: Edit
I'm inclined to discuss the following:
CURRENT RULE
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans or Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).
CHANGE TO READ
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with both the Romulans and the Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).
THEN ADD THE FOLLOWING:
(603.123) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side). However, if the Klingons or Lyrans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Klingon or Lyran attack.
(603.124) If the Federation starts a war with the Klingons or the Lyrans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side) or if the Romulans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Romulan attack.
The question is twofold:
Is this rule change official?
If not, will you consider the following additional changes (additions in underline, strikethrough in red)? The reason is that it's not entirely clear exactly when the Gorns would enter (as turn after could be the next Alliance turn, or same season, or it could be the following season)
Quote:Proposed Edits by Ted Fay
CURRENT RULE
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans or Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).
CHANGE TO READ
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with both the Romulans and the Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).
THEN ADD THE FOLLOWING:
(603.123) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side). However, if the Klingons or Lyrans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Klingon or Lyran attack. Thus, if the Klingons or Lyrans later attack the Federation on Coalition Turn #X, the Gorn may enter the war as an Alliance member on Alliance Turn #X+1
(603.124) If the Federation starts a war with the Klingons or the Lyrans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side) or if the Romulans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my may enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Romulan attack. Thus, if the Romulans later attack the Federation on Coalition Turn #X, the Gorn may enter the war as an Alliance member on Alliance Turn #X+1.
So a planet is owned by player A during the start of Player B's phase. Player B destroys the forces there. In that same phase is that planet still considered a supply source for purposes of retreat?
The rules for when planets are no longer supply sources seems to indicate that it doesn't lose that supply status until the next player's turn (but would block retrogrades, as there are enemies there), and if for some reason I did a fighting retreat over that planet and won it would never have been considered captured. Considering it not a supply source at this point in the battle phase, when it could become one again later in the battle phase, well, its confusing 
In this case the Hydrans are at their capital in 0617, owned both 0416 and 0519 at the start of the Coalition players turn. The coalition fought a battle for 0416 and forced the Hydrans to retreat, then the battle for the capital hex. Of course 0519 will also be attacked and retaken this phase, just not until after the capital retreat. Just doesn't seem real clear to me in the rules.
And if it isn't a supply source, wouldn't the retreating Hydrans be in a partial grid and have the ability to ignore 0519 as a supply node?
The only references I could find in the rules were dealing with fighting retreats, but that doesn't apply here.
I went through the pages and page and pages of QA stuff, and couldn't find this situation.
Regarding Ted's proposal 2 messages up, I think it would be improved to have the turn of Gorn entry be Turn#X + 2, as that preserves the Gorn entry delay equivalent to that of the standard timeline game (2 turns after Fed war with both Klingons & Romulans).
I do not think that the pathway to get to that state (K&R war with Fed) should affect the Gorn entry timeline.
------
There is an additional problem, as long as we are here:
603.2:
States to setup the Gorns on T12, whereupon they may attack the Roms, if they have attacked the Feds.
603.5:
States that if the Roms have not attacked the Feds, but K/L have, the Gorn can go to limited war on T10.
So, we have the odd situation that if R attack F, the Gorn remain resolutely at peace, but if the Roms don't, the Gorn go to limited war???
And, if limited war, G would need to be setup on T10.
Apologies if this aspect has already been corrected.