Archive through February 04, 2013
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS: F&E Q&A: Archive through February 04, 2013
By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 04:09 pm: Edit

I'm sorry to barge in here, since I'm not an F&E player. But I don't believe you're right, Andrew.

Tholian webs take many turns to dissapate.

(G10.41) has webs losing a point of aggregate strength per turn. So a web (of whatever length) at strength 35 (the strongest) would take 35 turns to drop to strength 0. (G10.43) then takes over, and the web takes a further 7 turns to completely dissapate. (Though during that time it is no longer a threat to low-speed navigation. It might be a threat to navigational-trans-warp speeds, though)

This is further compounded as the years go on. As per (G10.41), after Y174 it takes 77-turns (vice 42 turns, before Y161) for that web to completely dissapate.

Granted, it's still about an hour (give or take) for that web to go away. But certainly not the minute-or-two that a dissipation-by-impulse would suggest

By Paul Edwards (Pablomatic) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Q: (540.132)
Diplomats can be carried on "ships," presumably of any race (can find no restrictions for same empire).
Can a DIP cut off in an allied capital board an allied ship (say a Lyran DIP aboard a Romulan SPH in an isolated Romulus) and do a blockade run, staying in the target hex--similar to the way ADM and MMG may be returned to the owner's territory in this manner?

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 05:43 pm: Edit

needed a little help here.......looking for the rules for PFs,parts for the free PFs that some of the PFs Races get per turn or year........and the rule on exchange rate for fighters ot PFs..........Thanks

By Paul Edwards (Pablomatic) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Michael both are in the same place: (442.21 through 442.23 in AO).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:09 pm: Edit

MHO See (442.2) for the Free Fighter Factor exchange. See (7xx.xx) for the Lyran and Gorns. The Lyrans get 6 free PFs each turn and the Gorns get 3.

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:12 pm: Edit

thanks .....but that not what I'm looking for.....I remember reading somewhere, in the rulebook or in a CL mag.....Free PFs ( per turn or Year, like the Free Fighter Factors that all races get per year......Free PFs are done the same way like the FFF are done, plus a exchange rate for you turn Fighters into PFs using the FFF

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:16 pm: Edit

thanks Turle.....but it not in the (7xx.xx) that the 1st place I look (again check again not in (706) Gorn or (711) lyran )

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:16 pm: Edit

On the subject of depot rolls for ships trapped in the web:

I kinda always figured that depot rolls represented ships that weren't destroyed but were imminently about to be. The crews reacted quickly, went to silent running, dropped the warp core, etc, and got the ship out of the action. It's trashed, but it can be rebuilt back up to workable condition.

Salvage, on the other hand, is beaming out survivors and towing home hunks of ships for the scrapyard. Even if a few of them make it back under their own power, it's where the ship is nothing more than scrap metal used as a lifeboat. Lots of nifty stuff to pull off of that hulk, but it's not ever gonna fly again.

So consider that difference when the ship is trapped in the web. A 'scrapped' ship is nothing more than wreckage, as crews are beaming off or exiting in survival pods. If the attacker wins, they can loot the wreckage later. But in the case of a 'depot roll' ship... the ship is still in somewhat manageable condition, trying to escape on it's own.

Which it can't.

And when the Tholian weapon's officers, looking over the battlefield for targets, sees a ship seemingly still under its own power, trying to break free of the web... BOOM goes the ship!

So I see it totally logical that no depot rolls are possible. There's only gonna be bits and pieces, and the few lucky survivors.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:16 pm: Edit

MHO, both items, the FFF exchange and the Free PFs per turn are in (442.2).

The Gorn 3 free replacement PFs are under PF Deployment in the current online order of battle. Pg 22 of the PDF file.

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:22 pm: Edit

again thanks....find what I'm looking for in (442.21) & (442.23 ) thanks guys

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:29 pm: Edit

not on the copy I got.......Ver. 1 Jun 2009 download.... I find it on the Gorn BoO.... not listed for the Lyran BoO

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Tug mission 509.1-D (supply source) can be performed by LTTs and FFTs. Under that rule, it states that LTTs extend supply range 3 hexes, and FFTs just 2.

509.22 states that FFTs can do some missions in a limited way, and D is one of those.

However, as 2 LTTs can do 1 tug mission, and 3 FFTs can do 1 tug mission, are those ranges under 509.1, for non-tugs, multiplied by the ship count?

So, 2 LTTs or 3 FFTs doing mission D could extend the supply range 6 hexes?


And another related question. Could an FFT do a blockade run with a pod, sending to an out-of-supply fleet, and then bring home the pod the out-of-supply tug was using, all during 1 blockade run?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Ted:

Can you show me the enabling rule or SoP procedure that permits depot rolls for destroyed ships that occur at the conclusion of the combat phase?

5-6F: Surviving towing ships pull crippled units from web (512.32).
5-6G: Pinwheels may be dissolved (322.54).
5-6H: Assigned tugs attempt to rescue ships (537.2).
.........
5-6X7: Determine if any eligible ship casualties can enter Depot
Level Repair (DLR) system (424.33). Calculate and
record salvage for destroyed units (439.1).

Quote:

From the DLR Rules:
(424.33) Casualties: During the game, as casualties are
taken, the player rolls one die for each destroyed ship. If
the die roll is "1" the ship can be (but does not have to be)
placed in the Holding Box. [Indeed, the player does not
have to roll but can just salvage all of the lost ships.]
Otherwise, the ship is destroyed as in the normal rules.




Surly if a crippled ship requires an external ship to help extricate it from a web then how does a depot-destroyed unit manage to do it?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 10:11 am: Edit

Quote:

Surly if a crippled ship requires an external ship to help extricate it from a web then how does a depot-destroyed unit manage to do it?

I suppose it depends on how you view what, precisely, happens with a depot roll (which isn't terribly well defined). For example, a lifeless hulk of a ships (but not destroyed) may very well sit in the web indefinitely until after the battle. Such a ship may very well be in "good enough" condition for the depot. This was how I viewed the depot situation.

On the other hand, if you see things more like Kevin Howard does, the depot roll doesn't make sense. In his estimation, I would guess, that lifeless hulk is good only for salvage, and the depot is for other types of catastrophic situations. So, I could see it go either way.

Also, but more at the level of a proposal than an argument, it may be possible for a tug or other unit outside the web to pull a "destroyed" unit out the web if it has no other duties to pull out cripples. While this does not "rescue" the ship or change the salvage situation, it perhaps would allow a later depot roll in the same combat round according to the SoP you quoted above.

In any case, I understand where you are coming from regarding the SoP and 424.33. By the strict letter of 424.33 and the SoP, I agree the ruling is good. Thank you for the additional attention.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 10:16 am: Edit

And back to the salvage over Tholia.

Since salvage is calculated each round, does that mean that ships destroyed in the web only get salvage on the round where they actually win the hex, and all other rounds that salvage goes to the Tholias instead?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 10:30 am: Edit

Eric, IMO, unlike the depot ruling which had no support in the rule or in the SoP for making a depot roll at the end of the combat, literaly support is present for salvage. 439.11 explicitly states that salvage is accrued at the end of the combat *phase*, and is calculated per round "if convenient." The SoP provides the exact place where the salvage is accumulated, if done on a per-round basis - but the rule itself allows you to obtain salvage at the end of the phase. Thus, I believe that non-Tholian ships will receive their own salvage normally if they conquer the hex.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 10:32 am: Edit

FEDS, I moved my idea for modifying your ruling to the proposals topic, as it is a proposed change to the ruling rather than an appeal. Thanks.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 10:44 am: Edit

Doesn't the turn sequence usually trump any rule inconsistencies?

Because 439.11 does indeed say tally up salvage each phase (optionally each round), however, the turn sequence says it must be determined each *round* with nothing about salvage during the end of the phase.

So 439.11 is directly in contradiction to the turn sequence. So one of the two should probable be amended to clarify things one way or the other, whichever that may be.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 10:52 am: Edit

Quote:

Doesn't the turn sequence usually trump any rule inconsistencies?

Because 439.11 does indeed say tally up salvage each phase (optionally each round), however, the turn sequence says it must be determined each *round* with nothing about salvage during the end of the phase.

So 439.11 is directly in contradiction to the turn sequence. So one of the two should probable be amended to clarify things one way or the other, whichever that may be.

Clearly, there is no contradiction. The "normal" rule in 439.11 is to collect salvage at the end of the phase. If convenient, collect at the end of each round. If you go with the "convenient" procedure, then the SoP tells you where to collect during combat. If you go with the "normal" procedure, you collect at the end of the phase.

No contradiction. However, I agree clarification is in order.

I think 439.11 gives the salvage owning player the ability to switch procedures from combat hex to combat hex, but that isn't defined. Can you change procedures in the same combat hex from round to round? Instead, must you select a method for the whole game and stick with it? That part is nebulous.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 11:24 am: Edit

I'm just saying that during the SoP, Phase 5 (combat), Step 6X (Troop action interphase), substep? 7, is when salvage is calculated.

This is BEFORE 5-7A4, when it is determined to fight another round if neither player retreats, so it is done during each round.

So it appears the SoP indicates when, during combat, salvage is collected.

And since pursuit and retreat are part of a battle phase, and salvage cannot be collected after that, plus the fact that 439.11 indicates clearly that salvage can be done between rounds or at the end of the phase (which technically, the end of the phase is after pursuit), perhaps a step should be added to the very end of of phase 5 step 7, immediately before pursuit, to let the players know that would be the proper time to add up all salvage if it wasn't done during the rounds.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 11:27 am: Edit

Splitting hairs: in your own description there is a difference between "tally" and "collect" in regards to the timing of placing the salvage total for the turn onto your econ form and when that number becomes "a final value" at the end of the phase.

Sorry for just restating the obvious...

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 11:57 am: Edit

There is no contradiction between the rules and the SoP. You're trying to argue that the SoP trumps 439.11, but there is no contradiction in the first place. Any contradiction is resolved by the "if convenient" statement in 439.11. In other words, the SoP collection is optional.

Quote:

salvage can be done between rounds or at the end of the phase (which technically, the end of the phase is after pursuit)

No. Technically, the end of the combat phase is after all combat hexes are resolved, which is after pursuit (if any) of the very last combat hex of the turn.

By Andrew Bruno (Admeeral) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Well, IMHO, in any battle hex w/ Tholians salvage should be determined each round and the presence of webs taken into account.
For example, in the same battle hex where a web is present there may be an approach battle where no web was formed. The non-tholian should immediately collect salvage and roll depot for casualties normally. These casualties were not in a web (or any subsequent rounds after destruction of a Tholian base).


Any combat rounds in the same battle hex where attacking forces enter a web, casualties and salvage are accrued in a "Victors Purse" per (439.15). I think this amount should be recorded because by some crazy chain of events and retreats the same base could be attacked again in the same combat phase and that pot of salvage EPs would still be "in play".

Ted-
Also (by my reasoning), in your case from First Blood, I believe casualties not in the web should produce salvage for the attacker only- namely, your multiple dead D6Es.
I could be wrong but basically I think players need to keep running totals round by round for attacking ships inside and outside of a web for each qualifying hex until the end of the phase.

[edit] Matt Potter- thanks! It's been quite awhile since my last SFB game! :)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Andrew, I respectfully disagree with that assessment. I think the non-Tholian is entitled to all salvage for all non-Tholian ships destroyed during the combat hex, whether in or out of the web; during or after approach - but only so long as the non-Tholian wins the hex. I believe the operative word in 439.15 is "if."

Quote:

(439.15) Ships destroyed when trapped in a web (512.0) yield salvage to the Tholians (not their owners) if the base/planet is not captured or destroyed in that Combat Phase.

(Emphasis supplied).

Thus, in the invent that the base/planet IS captured or destroyed, ships destroyed when trapped in the web yield salavage for the owners.

In fact, I would argue that I don't even have two win the hex. Theoretically I could destroy a base but be unable to drive the Tholian fleet from the hex. Since the rule says, effectively, the Tholian gets salvage if the base is not destroyed, by negative inference the rule also says that if the base is destroyed (whether or not the attacker wins the hex) the non-Tholian gets salvage.

That's my take on it anyway, and my understanding of FEDS' ruling.

By Andrew Bruno (Admeeral) on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Ted-
I agree completely.
My intent was to promote the optional caveat of (439.11) for salvage totals between combat rounds for precision's sake. Not all salvage producing casualties may have been in the web and the non-Tholian player is at least entitled to salvage of casualties outside the web regardless of wether the base falls later or not.

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