The way the FCR rules read regarding 'emergency use' does not lead one to believe an FCR can/or should remain as an escort beyond its use during the combat phase (and with CEDS being removed has no use to remain there). One can and would have to form a combat formation at the beginning of each combat phase only to see it end with the phase. (Kind of brings to mind the intent of the original rule.)

The ironic thing is the last line in (526.351) where it seems to fly in the face if the point of this discussion (that they would be safer IN the carrier group).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 01:22 am: Edit

It has the escort mark on the counter, so I imagine it could just be used as a normal escort, disregarding the emergency use.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 10:48 am: Edit

I have to agree with Richard on that... FCR's are escorts and as such can be used as light escorts. They also have an emergency use which allows them in certain circumstances to violate the ordering of escorts protocol and to add themselves to an established group after the battle has started.

I do maintain however that infiltration as written doesn't care about FCR's or escorts or anything like that. Now if a rules change is in the works that is another thing, a rule change to infiltration might very well be in order, but I just cannot see any amount of peering at the infiltration rules as written that could divine that FCR's or escorted things or inner escorts are immune to infiltration attack. You are immune if there are at least three other ships in the hex with a smaller defense number.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Exactly Mike. The rule as written is very simple. Probably too simple.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 06:21 pm: Edit

I could sure get onboard with saying they are too simple and could use some tightening up. I am not prepared to work out a rules proposal but I would participate if someone put one up.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 06:33 pm: Edit

How about something along the lines of "the DEFENDER selects three ships that may be subject to attack, and the attacker picks which one of those three is attacked." That way, if you have a fleet of a 100 ships in the hex, you will only risk losing one of the smaller/least expensive ships.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 08:22 am: Edit

I actually like that quite alot Kosta!

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 10:30 am: Edit

I always felt that the infiltrations should be more likely to occur on crippled ships stationed at enemy planets, so I could see something that forces crippled ships into the selection pool regardless of defense factor.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 10:57 am: Edit

How about Defender picks two, and the attacker picks one, then roll two dice, 2 in 12 gets the attackers preference. Security screw ups would allow nearly any ship to be a target, with luck.

Edit, perhaps include the crippled ships suggestion by Rob Padilla.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, September 12, 2013 - 02:42 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

How about Defender picks two, and the attacker picks one, then roll two dice, 2 in 12 gets the attackers preference. Security screw ups would allow nearly any ship to be a target, with luck.

Edit, perhaps include the crippled ships suggestion by Rob Padilla.

---

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 08:46 am: Edit

infiltration of a B10 is not completly stupid, its stupid it would be 10 11 or 12 like any other ship though.

I would point you to some o the exploits of the Decima Flottiglia, Italian special forces maritime units in WWII. In a period from June 1940 (Italian DOW on the WAllies) to September 1943 (Italian Armistice with the WAllies) which is approximately 6 turns in F&E terms the following major warship casualties were inflicted by these special forces units which were frogmen and human manned torpedoes or minisubs with limpets (or small torpedo boats although I could find no reference to the boats being used on any missions that actually sailed).

HMS York (Hvy CA) disabled eventually abandoned and salvaged for spares

HMS Queen Elizabeth (BB) Damaged repaired and put back into service

HMS Valiant (BB) Damaged repaired and put back into service

HMS Jervis (DD) Damaged repaired and put back into service

HMS Edrisge (DD) Damaged, judged to damaged to put back into service used as base ship in dock.

Now the Decima Flottiglia MAS cannot be described per se as infiltration by insurgents it is an example of what can be done to well guarded and secured military units using unconventional tactics. A CA and DD destroyed in effect 2xBB and a DD crippled. Not counting numerous cargo and troop ships sunk or likewise damaged. That is 5 successful attacks in about 6 turns of F&E time.

No matter how secure you think a vessel might be irregulars have alot of time to plan for a single hour that your security might fail or be lax. It is amazing the number of missions scrubbed by the Decima Flottiglia MAS on Valetta Malta and Gibralter because days or hours earlier the units had set sail on wartime patrol. The Ark Royal and other British carriers narrowly escaped an attack that had a good chance of success when they sortied in response to the Bismark.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 10:24 am: Edit

Well, Mike, you may have convinced me. While space ships offer unique challenges to overcoming security, it *is* a star trek universe where transporters and other gizmos can overcome that. Besides, even the B10 needs to be supplied from time to time.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:29 am: Edit

Yep. I expect the typical infiltration attack to be something like this.

Captain of Cruiser: Tell my supply officer that I want some of that delicious Zurskian fruit for the officers mess this evening.
...
Supply Officer: Cr*p, I used all of the Zurskian Pinapples on the upside down cake at the Admirals dinner last monday... somebody get on the horn to Zurk to get a case sent here priority or heads will roll!
...
Zurskian Insurgent Leader: Okay men if its pinapples they want its pinapples they get.. duck down and watch out for space tarantulas your getting shipped to the IKV Flouridator to do some drilling!

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:36 am: Edit

Precisely. The likely hood of getting that B-10/Fed CVA are slight, but it is there.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 12:02 pm: Edit

RE: Rob's last question. I thought that it was settled that if you raid a captured, formerly friendly province that it produces an EP for the former capturing player - unless the province was annexed?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 12:05 pm: Edit

I am not sure you phrased that correctly Ted.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 05:09 pm: Edit

I'm too tired - and now I can't corrected it.

By Michael Alan Calhoon (Mcalhoon2) on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Since the Raid phase comes after the economics phase isn't this rather a moot point?

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 04:56 pm: Edit

The rule says it is disrupted for the next Economic Phase of the attacker.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 05:49 pm: Edit

It's a moot point for the original owner getting an EP is what Mike meant.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Afraid I'm not understanding you Richard? Maybe it's obvious but I fail to see the "moot" point.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 08:17 pm: Edit

After rereading everything I see I misinformed Michael, ignore his post and my subsequent comment.

By Michael Alan Calhoon (Mcalhoon2) on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 01:27 am: Edit

Ok, I'll ignore myself.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Rob Padilla said: "Q528.431:
With the new Small Scale Combat rules in the 2010 product, how is the single combat handled now with those rules?

But now in the new 310.0 rules, specifically 310.32 Retreat says:

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Quote:
(310.32) RETREAT: One (and only one) "casualty" may also be resolved as a "Retreat" action using (302.72). This results in dunits belonging to that player retreating one hex

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The old 310 was clear it only dealt with the single ships in the combat. But the new Small Scale Combat says a Retreat Casualty forces ALL ships out of the hex.

Then we have from 529.431:


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Quote:
Being forced to retreat takes the ship out of the battle force, but not out of the hex; it could be used in the Battle Force for a future round.

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So what happens in a Honor Duel? If a retreat casualty is taken, what happens? Also what would happen if one side or the other took 3 casualties (which must and CAN be resolved)? Would it end the combat right then and there? That seems way too powerful for one unit. "

I contend that the duel is resolved between only the penal ship and it's single opponent. Any additional casualties beyond what destroy a ship (and I note that you can get more than three) are ignored. A retreat result does not force a ship out of the hex, but only out of the battle force for that round.

I also contend, that only the two ships in the honor duel are affected by the result, not any other ships in the battle hex.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 03:39 pm: Edit

the honor duel rules, being more specific to the situation, supercede the small combat rules. it seems pretty clear-cut.

now, what's entertaining is 310.11. if before the first round of combat is resoved, we get an honor duel's small combat, doesn't all the rest of the fleet engagement have to be done via small combat? never in the lifetime of god will any player interpret the rule that way, but that's how it's worded.